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Brexit

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by Buckminster, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. Singer3000

    Singer3000 Member

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    I have not studied the American Civil War, I did see that Lincoln movie with Daniel Day Lewis and one ages ago with Michael J Fox, if you think that's a useful education? Enlighten me. Are you trying to link the voting motivations of Brexit to those that profiteered from human slavery two centuries ago?
     
  2. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    No....

    Brexit isn't about 'British sovereignty' it's about xenophobia and racism. The American Civil War wasn't about 'States Rights'.... well anything beyond the right to own a slave... They're both rather obvious branding attempts to hide an ugly and obvious truth beneath the surface that isn't fooling anyone.
     
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  3. Singer3000

    Singer3000 Member

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    That you believe this says an awful lot more about you than it does the many millions of people of all ethnicities and persuasions who peacefully voted in good faith for Leave in 2016. It still staggers me that seemingly sensible people are unable to understand that others with different personal circumstances and experiences will sometimes disagree with them, for wholly respectable and defensible reasons. Oh well, it was nice talking to you. I don't block many people on here but since you seem to think that I, many of my closest friends and family and more than half of the UK are xenophobic and racist, it's probably for the best that I don't have to read any more of your drivel.
     
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  4. busaman

    busaman Member

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    brexit is about our right to self govern,cotrol of our borders,control of our immigration,and who we trade with. we now have close on 80million people but nobody actually knows and remember the UK is no bigger than florida. (its a bit like the usa being told what they can and cant do by mexico) i feel people the think we are all racist etc.do not actually know the british people at all.
     
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  5. Mader Levap

    Mader Levap Member

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    Do I believe that literally all those voted for leave are racists and xenophobes? No. This is your strawman. I don't see anyone here claiming that kind of thing.

    Do I believe that xenophobia, racism and related rot of human mind was major motivation for a lot of people in voting "leave"? Yes.
     
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  6. DriverOne

    DriverOne Supporting Member

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    Nonsense. The USA has no say in Mexican law. It would be more akin to Alaska being told what they can and can't do by the USA - Alaska is part of the US and has a say in the laws that are applied to all States. Then Alaska deciding they don't like the laws that they helped create, and leaving.

    Unfortunately the promised sunny grasslands full of pots of gold just outside the clearly marked Exit door now appear rather barren, the exit requires a large toll, Alaska can barely find the door, let alone squeeze through it, and our Russian friends are rubbing their hands with divide-and-conquer glee.
     
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  7. busaman

    busaman Member

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    i think that is a general popular thought of the far left in this country which is just not true, we are one of the most tolerant nations in the word there are arround 1m poles working/living here "im guessing you are polish" our country is as diverse as anywhere in the world i have friends from pakistan and india who also voted leave, we are simply being overun our services can no longer cope with more and more of which we have no control, something has to give.
     
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  8. EVNow

    EVNow Well-Known Member

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    According to Betfair there is 2:1 chance of May leaving before Brexit.
     
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  9. Singer3000

    Singer3000 Member

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    I'm afraid your analogy shows you do not understand this well at all. When the UK signed up in 1975 to the European Community, it was rationalised to UK voters as an economic / trading club. Alaska meanwhile, is a constituent part of a single federalised country.

    Herein lies the simple reason for the political divergence between the UK and the EU since 1993, and subsequently the Brexit vote. The UK was sold on the benefits of being part of a large economic and trading union. The rest of Europe was to a greater or lesser extent from the beginning, pursuing a political union (see Treaty of Rome 1957 - "ever closer union"). Since the UK acceded in 1975, through subsequent treaty change there are now well embedded political concepts such as an EU Presidency, court, citizenship, flag etc...

    By example, most in the UK looked at the single currency project and thought it mad, as from a purely economic perspective it makes little sense, with only quite minor benefits to transaction costs but potentially huge downsides from the centralisation of monetary policy (and eventually fiscal policy too).

    But for the core European countries and the Commission, the Eurozone project made perfect sense, as a tool towards deeper political integration in the future. The Eurozone would by now have likely failed had the European Central Bank not effectively pooled nation states' sovereign debt through quantitative easing. The financial system in key countries (not least Italy) would also have collapsed without the Target 2 mechanism for correcting capital imbalances between Eurozone members.

    But there's a democratic problem still to be solved there. It's unreasonable to expect taxpayers in Northern Europe to assume the debt risk of other members that may for example have a far looser fiscal policy and more cavalier attitude to tax collection. The clear solution is a common Treasury and common Debt Management Office, to allow the underwriting of all sovereign debt across the Eurozone, and transfer payments to areas of weak employment/economic activity.

    At this point, you are really very far down the road to full federalization. Security/foreign policy would arguably be the only core national policy area still sitting with national governments but even here, there are steady steps towards a common foreign policy (there is an EU Foreign Minister) and if M. Macron gets his way, the pooling of armed forces too (partly in response to Trump's undermining of NATO). This is far beyond where much of the Brexit debate among UK politicans and the media rests, which is driven by whether the UK has sovereign decision making powers to the challenges and opportunities of globalisation (largely surrounding trade and immigration). But they are actually highly relevant concepts to the average voter who ticked Leave.

    Whether you think the political project is a good idea depends at heart on your view on what government exists for. If like me you believe that decision making is generally at its most effect when it is accountable, transparent and localised (ideally at the level of the individual), then there are quite clear downsides to the EU model of governance, which even its cheerleaders would acknowledge has problems with transparency and accountability. As for localised, well it's quite clear that the treaty concept of "subsidiarity" (decisions to be taken as locally as possible) has been quietly put to bed.

    But many of my European friends are quite ok with this trend towards full federalisation. For many countries, there are quite obvious historical attractions to either grouping under the protection of larger neighbours or else using the European project as a backstop against slides towards nationalism, autocracy or hyperinflation. There are after all very few countries in Europe that in the past 100 years have not lived either under autocracy or foreign occupation (or both). Conversely in the UK, I'd suggest for quite clear historical reasons, the federal Europe project is a very fringe goal indeed. Given the likely destination of the EU and cultural norms in the UK, Brexit is therefore arguably an inevitability, whether it happens now or in the future. A clean and amicable solution to the UK's relationship with the EU is hence strongly in the interests of all Europeans.

    So when other posters say Brexit was mainly about "sovereignty", they are exactly right. Meanwhile people that are quite unfamiliar with the arguments and the cultural norms in the UK have lazily tried to ascribe racism to the Brexit movement and project their dislike of Donald Trump to a quite different cultural phenomenon. There are those who say that this argument is silly, that the nation state is and always has been sovereign to the EU and that just as the UK Parliament voted to join, the UK Parliament could vote to leave. I'd counter that what this current political chaos is really showing is just how much sovereignty has already been ceded, given how difficult it seems to be to properly execute the UK's departure.
     
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  10. DriverOne

    DriverOne Supporting Member

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    Interesting post, despite its length I am left wondering why you attacked my analogy and yet let the Mexican one slide :)

    > The UK was sold on the benefits of being part of a large economic and trading union. The rest of Europe was ... pursuing a political union

    Brexit, attempting to escape political union, is throwing out the baby with the bath water?
     
  11. busaman

    busaman Member

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    > The UK was sold on the benefits of being part of a large economic and trading union. The rest of Europe was ... pursuing a political union

    Brexit, attempting to escape political union, is throwing out the baby with the bath water?[/QUOTE]

    NO that is what the government decided, we were not asked. now we have a say and dont want it anymore they dont like it mainly because self/vested interest in the EU as the saying goes "you can fool some of the people some of the time but you cant fool everyone all the time"
     
  12. Paracelsus

    Paracelsus Member

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    Forget Brexit and focus on climate change, Greta Thunberg tells EU

    “Our house is falling apart and our leaders need to start acting accordingly because at the moment they are not,” the 16-year old schoolgirl from Sweden told a standing room-only meeting of MEPs and EU officials in Strasbourg.

    “If our house was falling apart our leaders wouldn’t go on like we do today,” she said. “If our house was falling apart, you wouldn’t hold three emergency Brexit summits and no emergency summit regarding the breakdown of the climate and the environment.”



    Forget Brexit and focus on climate change, Greta Thunberg tells EU

    Greta's speech is in the video attached to the Guardian article above
     
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  13. EVNow

    EVNow Well-Known Member

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    I think N.I. and Scotland decided they want to stay in EU. So, I guess you are ok if they leave UK after Brexit. And London too ;)
     
  14. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    Screen Shot 2019-04-16 at 7.29.09 PM.png
     
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  15. Singer3000

    Singer3000 Member

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    #395 Singer3000, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
    At least for now, N.I. and Scotland are constituent parts of the nation the United Kingdom. Actually that they voted to Remain underlines why my analysis on the voting rationals for Remain vs Brexit is probably correct - large proportions of the populations of both Northern Ireland and Scotland have felt for centuries as though under English occupation. London is a culturally a different place to the rest of England at this point. A greater proportion of the population there have also directly benefited from globalisation than elsewhere and are much more comfortable with pooled sovereignty as a trade-off.

    Edit - meant to say, I don't mind one way or the other if Scotland goes independent or Ireland reunifies, so long as that is the democratic wish of the populations there. At a personal level, I would see Scotland going in particular, as a great shame. Despite some very dark episodes in history, Britain/the UK has also achieved an awful lot of good and there is far more that unites the English and Scots than divides. The divorce between Scotland and England/Wales would however make Brexit look a picnic and would cause no end of acrimony. For this reason, I think you'll find it's quite an unlikely circumstance for the foreseeable future (support for another IndeRef is quite low right now).

    London? There are those that would welcome the return to the days of the merchant city state model of governance. London as Florence, Amsterdam as Venice etc.... This is rather counter to the centralised model of a pan-European government though is it not?
     
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  16. Singer3000

    Singer3000 Member

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    I thank you. Short posts are always preferable but sometimes depth is needed to get away from glib: "they're all racist", "no they aren't" type arguments.

    The comparison with Mexico is not really a false one. I cannot believe for a minute that more than a handful of people in the US would be agreeable to outsourcing trade, social, environmental, immigration and labour policies to a Pan American version of the EU (yet alone economic and monetary, foreign/security/defence). The UK has succeeded in vetoing very little EU policy of any substance in recent years, though has swayed policy direction to a certain extent. So not "no say" but with both the expansion of the EU to 28 members and the spread of Qualified Majority Voting (QMV) to ever more areas of policy, "a near negligible say" would be quite correct.
     
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  17. EVNow

    EVNow Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what your analysis is - but there isn't just one cause. Disaffection can be turned into xenophobia/racism very easily (as shown by routine xenophobia on Mirror etc). This is what Brexit politicians have done in UK, Trump has done in US.

    The same people were turned in to peace loving protesters by Gandhi - and now Modi has turned them into lynching mobs in India.

     
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  18. Singer3000

    Singer3000 Member

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    I can see there's nothing that can be done to convince you that most of the world is not horribly racist. Not more to be said really.
     
  19. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone here is claiming 'most of the world' is racist... but certainly most of the people that voted for Trump and Brexit.
     
  20. EVNow

    EVNow Well-Known Member

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