Buying advice - New 3 or Used S

[philingle]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to learn to fly?

Its not really that expensive, about £50 for the electric if you don't have free supercharging, £80ish for the tolls in france, £45 for the ferry (P&O Season ticket). I do around 8 return trips a year, so that comes to £2800 a year, or about £53 a week on average. I imagine that there are a lot of people who pay a lot more than that for their annual commute. It actually doesn't cost much different to fly back an forth.

have you considered the Rotterdam to Hull ferry crossing ? It’s an overnight trip, so saves you the hotel cost, and cuts out a big chunk of driving through the South East and Midlands

That is quite an attractive idea, that would take quite a few miles off and, like you say, avoid the hell around London. It doesn't look like they are running at the moment though.

 

[jsteele]

I do quite a few Aberdeen-Liverpool trips (obviously shorter than you are planning!) in an early 2017 75D Model S and find it to be an ideal and comfortable long range cruiser.

I'd recommend a 90D to give that extra bit of range for regular long trips. An early 2017 model with free supercharging and enhanced autopilot would probably work out to be the most cost effective option for you with high mileage and if you want auto lane change.

I suppose you can try driving this trip a few times, worse case if you decide you prefer flying after all then you'll still have an awesome car to use at home! Good luck!

 

[Mash]

Model S with air suspension and large battery is better for long drives. But it's a 2 full days trip. Morning to evening. You're going to hate those during second trip. If you're going to be trying to do it in one day you will end up killing somebody. I did a lot of 1000km a day trips in EU and few in model 3.

 

[gangzoom]

I don't think it would be anything like as taxing as your commute was.

My commuter was only 3hrs+ ever so often, most trips were 45 minutes each way, I still hated it. I was at least claiming back the miles at 45p per mile, hope you are doing the same, it would be on massive travel claim!!

You seem determined to try it so good luck, get a Model 3 not a used S which will get crippled SuperCharging speeds very quickly

 

[LukeT]

If there's a big European hub with which Aberdeen does have a reliable daily link, maybe there's a halfway house solution with a long tesla drive to that? If your journey normally takes 2 flights then flight carbon emissions would probably easily halve by moving to one bigger more popular flight? (covid notwithstanding)

Anyway, key point I'd add to those above is to wonder about just how big the benefit of AP is. I take the view that it does genuinely make a significant difference but, because you must still concentrate 100% of the time, and genuinely you must, that benefit is limited. I do a 3.5 hour mostly quiet motorway journey twice a week in normal times and AP does make a real difference to me but I did that journey before and I'm not sure it makes so much of a difference that I'd have moved to driving from a good public transport option. I do note that neither you nor I have a good public transport option (!) but you get the point. I'd find a way if you can to spend significant time with AP before spending the cash if your investment relies on this.

Also... ABRP. I might be stating the bleeding obvious here but it's not just range, for you, total time spent charging is about charging KW and how far each KWh gets you, and both are more in a 3LR than an S. Presumably long road trip miles per hour average in Model 3 vs Model S are significantly different.

Anyway, not scientific but in our Raven Model S I'm glad of the little bit more efficiency vs older cars.

Finally, this car's charging will be mostly DC. How long into battery life before it starts to adjust its max charging speed down, and by how much? I don't know the answer to this, but it's worth researching. Basically, supercharging is harder on batteries than AC and there are stories of Tesla applying some software restrictions to charging after, I think, a certain number of DC charges. If the slowing is significant it could wear thin on your long journey.

 

[DJP31]

I have worked out that I could drive it, but to do so using my head to drive navigate etc for that distance would be hard and dangerous. My thoughts are that a Tesla could take much of that load off, and do a fair bit of the driving for me.

I’m afraid the basic premise that autopilot would take the load off is flawed. It’s a driver aid that requires nearly as much concentration as not having it. There’s no way it would reduce the drive from being ‘hard and dangerous’ to acceptable levels IMO.

For reference I drive a Model S 75D with AP2 and EAP.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

My commuter was only 3hrs+ ever so often, most trips were 45 minutes each way, I still hated it. I was at least claiming back the miles at 45p per mile, hope you are doing the same, it would be on massive travel claim!!

You seem determined to try it so good luck, get a Model 3 not a used S which will get crippled SuperCharging speeds very quickly

Got to be the most stupid post ever - starts by saying they've done a 3+ hours daily which is way less than the OP when averaged out, then tries to say its not and then tries to justify it by saying they were being paid 45p a mile as if that makes it ok At least the OP wasn't planning on doing a full days work in the middle of doing the drive, it would be what they did that day like a lorry driver.

Maybe consider reflecting on your judgemental opinions of others and drop your hyportical "its ok, I got 45p a mile, but you shouldn't do it" view

You do need to pay attention with AP but where it makes life easier on quiet roads is things like maintaining a speed without you having to moderate the throttle (not unique to Tesla) and the generally stress and noise free environment without an engine drone. You can drive 2 hours with less stress on an empty paege than 15 mins on the M25.

 

[gangzoom]

Got to be the most stupid post ever.

As stupid as assuming I've never driven on the continent

I have no idea what you are ranting about now though, sorry if I seem to have upset you so much, hope your enjoying the bank holiday sun.

 

[freekie]

Another thought in case not covered. You can get a ‘bed set’ for the M3 so you can sleep in it! Google for the videos online.

 

[DrJFoster]

I have no idea what you are ranting about now though

Maybe George was like me and found it a touch arrogant that you seem content telling others what they shouldn't do and then gloating about making 45p a mile doing something worse. Are you related to anyone called Dominic?

 

[gangzoom]

Maybe George was like me and found it a touch arrogant that you seem content telling others what they shouldn't do and then gloating about making 45p a mile doing something worse. Are you related to anyone called Dominic?

WTF? I didn't 'make' 45p per mile, it's a standard HMRC stuff which million of people claim for every day, as do millions of people travel 50-60-70/day miles for buissness daily.

But driving from the Apls to Aberdeen in a car, that is not something most would even consider let alone do. The OPs seem to want to try it though, so they do should at least see if they can claim tax relief from HMRC for doing business miles, everyone else does so what's the issue?

 

[j6Lpi429@3j]

that sounds an insane trip. Even once. to do it regularly...i strongly advise against it. Autopilot is AMAZING, but its not like you can fall asleep.
FWIW if what you care about is motorway driving, even my old 2015 AP1 car is fine for it. The big gaps between AP1, AP2 and HW3 Ap is mostly urban driving. My AP1 car is flawless on motorways.

But me? I'd change jobs or move house. Thats a crazy trip. Buy a tesla anyway though (they are amazing).

 

[Ant M3]

Maybe George was like me and found it a touch arrogant that you seem content telling others what they shouldn't do and then gloating about making 45p a mile doing something worse. Are you related to anyone called Dominic?

Mileage charge back is a totally standard HMRC thing to do ... absolutely nothing wrong with it. EV charge back isn’t anywhere near as lucrative @ 4p per mile (I think)

Such a shame people take offence so easily For what started out as a question about S vs 3 !

 

[DrJFoster]

Mileage charge back is a totally standard HMRC thing to do ... absolutely nothing wrong with it. EV charge back isn’t anywhere near as lucrative @ 4p per mile (I think)

Such a shame people take offence so easily For what started out as a question about S vs 3 !

That's not why I took offense. gangzoom has lectured (as he has done across a number of forums and topics) on why one shouldn't consider driving a car over a day or so across Europe on safety grounds, how tiring it would be etc but then admits to having driven up to 3 hours daily on top of his workload and then suggests its ok because he could claim 45p a mile and the OP should do the same. It seems the principled view over safety went out the window for a few quid.

Maybe if the point had been constructed as "Personally I think its a bad ideal as a permanent arrangement once or twice a month, fatigue can build up, and while on a summers day with light traffic and good visibility its not so bad, in winter with rain, fog, the dark, etc its going to be far from an enjoyable experience. You might get away with it over the summer months while Covid passes and re-evaluate the situation and see how you het on. As an aside, if its your car you can claim 45p a mile on business if the journey qualifies or 4p if the car is through a business but that's somewhat a secondary consideration". That's my thoughts on the topic.

 

[Mr H]

Lorry drivers seem to be able to do this day in day out.

Err no we don't - the most you can drive in a truck is 9hrs per day (or 10 hours twice a week), then we have to rest for 11hrs. I can just about make Manchester to Aberdeen in 10hrs and that's it. It's a lot easier sitting at 50-55mph than 70-80mph for hours on end

 

[philingle]

You can get a ‘bed set’ for the M3 so you can sleep in it!

Awesome - now that is the sort of ace info that you get from forums like this. Thanks

And..

There's quite extensive information on whats the difference between versions and when things came out on a web site I favour (so sorry for the number of links) as it seems to summerise the detail rather than wading through lots of posts on forums. From my reading:

- Free supercharging is only available oin new MS/MX and non Tesla sales of cars first registered before March 2017. Much more detail here:

Tesla Info: Do I have free supercharging?

- Autopilot hardware changed from the Mobileye system in late 2016 to HW2, and HW2.5 didn't arrive until 2018 way after transferable free supercharging went. The main changes over time are listed here:

Tesla model history and changes by year

- The difference between the different autopilot systems is often closer than you think. The early HW2 cars miss a lot of functionality thats available on the later cars, especially if you have HW2 and MCU1. As a result, unless the car can be upgraded, and for that you need to have FSD paid for, a HW2 car is not vastly different to the older AP1 system, and in some cases the AP1 is better (for instance it reads speed limits). On a long drive on roads like the French peage, both systems are more than adequate, I've driven to Italy and Spain quite happily in an AP1 car.. More details on the hardware differences:

Tesla AP, EAP, FSD, HW2, HW2.5 HW3, MCU1 and MCU2 feature differences

The differences between a MS and an M3 with respect to dimensions etc can be seen side by side here, although I think they only look at the current MS, the earlier cars had a 7 seat option if you class the 2 rear facing seats as seats, really they were just for kids and short journeys. The MS is noticeably larger and I think better looking but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. M3 wins on things like beling slightly faster to charge (although for the real speed improvement you need the new V3 superchargers and currently I think there is just one location with them in the Uk) and better efficiency (not that efficiency matters that much if you're charging for free).:

Tesla S3XY differences

The last could of points:
Depreciation - while Model 3s are still fairly new and not really suffered from depreciation yet, its an unknown element in the future. You would normally expect a used car to depreciate less than a new car as the depreciation is rarely a stratight line, a good £45k MS may therefore hold its value slightly better than a £45k M3 over say 2 years. But an MS with free supercharging is going to drop out of warranty soon except for the battery and motor so swings and roundabouts. There are more independant repair places setting up who can cost a fraction of Teslas prices (eMMC fix is £500 v £2500 at Tesla, door handles are a £80 fix inc labour v £350 at Tesla etc).

The MS would probably have free premium connectivity, the M3 might have a year free and then you pay £10 a month if bothered.

In your shoes I'd be looking at a facelift MS 90Ds are around 45k with what you want, or pay 5k and get a bonkers P90D (check it has ludicrous) - there are few 100Ds with free sueprcharging around and you seem to pay £10k more for them. Or I'd be after a M3 Long Range. I have a suspicion that the M3 Performance will be upgraded to a faster version at some point and take the edge of the current model, but thats speculation.

Loads and loads of great info, thanks

 

[darkNstormy]

Its not really that expensive, about £50 for the electric if you don't have free supercharging, £80ish for the tolls in france, £45 for the ferry (P&O Season ticket). I do around 8 return trips a year, so that comes to £2800 a year, or about £53 a week on average. I imagine that there are a lot of people who pay a lot more than that for their annual commute. It actually doesn't cost much different to fly back an forth.



That is quite an attractive idea, that would take quite a few miles off and, like you say, avoid the hell around London. It doesn't look like they are running at the moment though.

DFDS run a ferry service Amsterdam-Newcastle:

https://www.dfds.com/en-gb/passenger-ferries/ferry-crossings/ferries-to-holland/newcastle-amsterdam

This would make it a less brutal drive but you'd still have plenty of time to enjoy your Tesla

I've just got a new Model 3 and the autopilot definitely makes a long journey less stressful for me. It's been quite windy of late and the autopilot has taken a lot of the strain of compensating for it - I tried with AP on and off and there was a lot of buffeting without it. Yes, you still have to concentrate on what's in front of you, it's far from autonomous, but it helps better than any other driver aid I've ever tried.

If you think drive + ferry will work for you then go for it. You've clearly put a lot of thought into this.

Alternatively, you could ask Dom Cummings if you can borrow his car as apparently you never have to stop to refuel it.

 

[holmgang]

I used to fly to Aberdeen often. I know the annoyances of limited flight schedule traveling to smaller airports. That said, a 2000km is a beating of a drive, and there's no way I'll ever trade substitute that against schlepping across airport transfers.

But you've already made up your mind on that point, so here's what I can add from doing 2000km pan European journeys in my Tesla:

* approx 150-200 EUR in supercharging cost (or around 7c/km, or the equivalent of a diesel car)
* charging stops every 2.5 hours. very tolerable spacing. perhaps not if you're doing it more than once a month.
* the autopilot cannot be relied to "relieve" your driving, imo. requires constant alertness -- phantom braking, refusal to work, incorrect speed limits, etc. disabled due to sensors being blocked, etc. it is useful in traffic jams though.

you'll be replacing a set of tires every 5-10 trips... thats not inconsequential.

 

[roblab]

Just a data point: I own a Model S Long Range and a Model 3. My feelings are that supercharging is over rated, and though you pay for the 3 per use, it's not expensive. Sure, the S is "free", but I'm sure it's paid for in the higher price of the car. It's not a game changer.

The S is more comfy, has controls for steering wheel stiffness, air shock stiffness, ride height, etc. The interior is more roomy, the sound is a little better, etc. But the car costs twice as much. But if I need to go on a long drive, especially if I have to do it often, I'm taking the S.

 

[Ant M3]

That's not why I took offense. gangzoom has lectured (as he has done across a number of forums and topics) on why one shouldn't consider driving a car over a day or so across Europe on safety grounds, how tiring it would be etc but then admits to having driven up to 3 hours daily on top of his workload and then suggests its ok because he could claim 45p a mile and the OP should do the same. It seems the principled view over safety went out the window for a few quid.

Maybe if the point had been constructed as "Personally I think its a bad ideal as a permanent arrangement once or twice a month, fatigue can build up, and while on a summers day with light traffic and good visibility its not so bad, in winter with rain, fog, the dark, etc its going to be far from an enjoyable experience. You might get away with it over the summer months while Covid passes and re-evaluate the situation and see how you het on. As an aside, if its your car you can claim 45p a mile on business if the journey qualifies or 4p if the car is through a business but that's somewhat a secondary consideration". That's my thoughts on the topic.

Ahh I see, I did appreciate the history or wider context ... also difficult to follow the thread. thanks for putting it straight though