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California Utilities Plan All Out War On Solar, Please Read And Help

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Sounds like you've had a bad experience. Outside of one lightning strike we've had no reliability issues with our solar. Pretty much just works. Who installed yours?

I've had some issues, and I love my solar system. SunPower had to come and replace every last microinverter on our system (48 panels!) because of a recall. Then we also had a problem with one powerwall, but that was because it was mis-wired on install (by Tesla Energy).
 
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I've had some issues, and I love my solar system. SunPower had to come and replace every last microinverter on our system (48 panels!) because of a recall. Then we also had a problem with one powerwall, but that was because it was mis-wired on install (by Tesla Energy).
Outside of some kind of fluke power surge from a nearby lightning strike which fried both gateway computers in our 2 solar systems we've been fortunate. Now I've got a whole house surge protector on both systems. Knock on wood. Systems just chug along.
 
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You really don't get the economics or the point behind the bill. The point behind the bill is to reduce the payback period of solar such that it no longer has any kind of incentive to the homeowner. In fact if you tax solar sufficiently you can readily create a situation of no pay back period. In other words that solar never pays for itself. In that context, why would anyone install Solar on their Roof? This eliminates the existential threat that a distributed grid represents to the big power monopolies. Rooftop solar is a disruptive technology in terms of the grid. It threatens to make traditional grid concepts obsolete. There are hundreds of billions of dollars at stake. That's enough money to get corrupt Politicians lined up behind your taxation plan that will eliminate the threat from the disruptive technology. That's what's happening. Wake up and smell the coffee. Money corrupts with absolute money corrupting absolutely meaning that all monopolies are inherently corrupting. All of this of course is the antithesis of any concept of the free market where the best idea and the most efficient production is supposed to win. That's not what power companies want.


I really would like to see if new construction will still be forced to include solar after this is done.

As a fan of solar/storage, I've never liked the forced solar for new homes since you can't choose how to install the solar (components, company, tech) and some homes have horrid roof layouts (only north facing) making generation much lower. I'm pretty sure really bad layout homes have 0 ROI even after 10 years.

I know if I were to move and look for a new home, I'd specifically target every little energy benefit (insulation, roof layout, etc) and would readily not buy something without good solar potential.
 
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A decent sized Solar System amortized over its lifetime which is at least 25 years vectors towards ~ 10-12 cents a kilowatt hour which is really a number almost all utility companies can't touch.

That number sounds ballpark in CA with near 1:1 net metering.

I think the utilities are like most Americans: they favor the public interest so long as it does not interfere with their profits.
 
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That number sounds ballpark in CA with near 1:1 net metering.

I think the utilities are like most Americans: they favor the public interest so long as it does not interfere with their profits.
Unfortunately public interest is permanently at odds with the interest of any public utility monopoly. There's a narrow overlap of interests in terms of having a reliable grid but it is in the interest of the power company especially their Executives and stockholders to make as much money from the system as they possibly can. This is a conflict of interest not too dissimilar from health insurance companies, where it is necessary if you're going to maximize profits to either screw patients or clinicians or some of both. Since we allow conflict of interest routinely in this country, why shouldn't we allow it in terms of the grid?
 
Unfortunately public interest is permanently at odds with the interest of any public utility monopoly.

It is disingenuous to first maintain that customers will choose dirty energy over equal cost clean energy, and then rant about utilities choosing what seems to serve their self-interest. People in glass houses, and all that. Moreover, you are not mentioning that every public monopoly utility is obligated to public oversight. The PUCs and PRCs all over the country are either elected directing by the people, or by executives voted in by the people. In CA, the governor can nix any PUC decision not to his liking.

Sorry, but going after the utility bogeyman is too easy. The public majority at large view net metering as an unfair subsidy of the rich. That you and I think that argument is BS is besides the point that we are a very small minority.

Here is the bottom line: Anything near 1:1 net metering is a huge revenue shortfall for utilities, and can only be justified to the extent that it carries social cost of carbon value, meaning less fossil combustion. Now you tell me -- what fraction of the voting populace view climate change as a looming material catastrophe that affects them directly, let alone have a clue about the social cost of carbon ?
 
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So not true. First, for utilities you can decouple things like power producers and those companies that run the poles/wires. Texas has done this and has a VERY competitive utility landscape. Power producers are always competing against each other for customers (and Tesla just joined this group as a power producer through their VPP - more competition AND end users will get paid as power producers!).

Second, CRONY Capitalism is not traditional capitalism. One of the core functions of government in a democracy is to put in place mechanisms to prevent monopolies and corruption. With those in place, capitalism works great. Just look at your cell phone - LITERALLY, without capitalism it would not exist, because competition drove innovation that brought forth things like the smart phone.
Utilities are natural monopolies since it is inefficient to install multiple sets of wires or pipes to houses. In return for this monopoly, utilities must be regulated to avoid abuse. Unfortunately, for-profit utilities are constantly trying to game the system to use their monopoly power to increase profits. (Actually, this is a good argument for public, non-profit, ownership of utilities.)
Capitalism in the US facilitates regulatory capture by allowing political contributions and permitting a revolving door between private industry and the public sphere. Totally corrupt.
 
It is disingenuous to first maintain that customers will choose dirty energy over equal cost clean energy, and then rant about utilities choosing what seems to serve their self-interest. People in glass houses, and all that. Moreover, you are not mentioning that every public monopoly utility is obligated to public oversight. The PUCs and PRCs all over the country are either elected directing by the people, or by executives voted in by the people. In CA, the governor can nix any PUC decision not to his liking.

Sorry, but going after the utility bogeyman is too easy. The public majority at large view net metering as an unfair subsidy of the rich. That you and I think that argument is BS is besides the point that we are a very small minority.

Here is the bottom line: Anything near 1:1 net metering is a huge revenue shortfall for utilities, and can only be justified to the extent that it carries social cost of carbon value, meaning less fossil combustion. Now you tell me -- what fraction of the voting populace view climate change as a looming material catastrophe that affects them directly, let alone have a clue about the social cost of carbon ?
Your talking points against solar have been promoted by utilities who see solar as a threat.
Unfortunately, they are not accurate. Solar is not an unfair subsidy for the rich. Solar reduces CO2. Most people understand that CO2 is an existential threat to life as we know it and that trumps the utilities quest for more profits.
 
So not true. First, for utilities you can decouple things like power producers and those companies that run the poles/wires. Texas has done this and has a VERY competitive utility landscape.
Texas is having problems because the producers are insufficiently regulated. The grid must be hardened to deal with once in 10, 20 or 50 year cold snaps but companies won't make the investments because they'd rather bet that it's not going to happen this year or next year. And if a cold snap does not occur, the companies that make insufficient investments in power generation infrastructure will be able to underbid the companies that designed their generation properly, and are rewarded financially for doing so.
Power producers are always competing against each other for customers (and Tesla just joined this group as a power producer through their VPP - more competition AND end users will get paid as power producers!).
As long as the playing field is level for producers, because the government has forced them to make the same investments against very cold and very hot weather, the power producer market can benefit from competition. But then there is the transmission and distribution market. It doesn't make sense to have different transmission and distribution networks because this would cost a lot more to build and maintain. Plus, no community would tolerate multiple networks of power lines and transformers all over the place. Have you looked at your electricity bill? Most of the charges on it are not generation charges but transmission charges.
 
Utilities are natural monopolies since it is inefficient to install multiple sets of wires or pipes to houses. In return for this monopoly, utilities must be regulated to avoid abuse. Unfortunately, for-profit utilities are constantly trying to game the system to use their monopoly power to increase profits. (Actually, this is a good argument for public, non-profit, ownership of utilities.)
Capitalism in the US facilitates regulatory capture by allowing political contributions and permitting a revolving door between private industry and the public sphere. Totally corrupt.

The wires/poles can be separated from the power producers. That can be regulated and caps, etc. implemented.

But there is NO GOOD REASON that power producers can't have unfettered access to that grid to compete for customers.


In Texas, despite potential political leanings, this has worked out well. Customers get ONE BILL, and on it is the poles/wires charge (a small fixed rate per kwh, usually about 3-4c/kwh). Then there is a second line for their power utilization from the power producer of their choice.


California utilities are TERRIFIED of the above scenario.


Fun fact - SDG&E (where we live) has THE HIGHEST power rates in the nation. They are also one of the most profitable utilities in the nation per customer. They happen to be heavy political contributors. Coincidence, I think not.
 
Texas is having problems because the producers are insufficiently regulated. The grid must be hardened to deal with once in 10, 20 or 50 year cold snaps but companies won't make the investments because they'd rather bet that it's not going to happen this year or next year. And if a cold snap does not occur, the companies that make insufficient investments in power generation infrastructure will be able to underbid the companies that designed their generation properly, and are rewarded financially for doing so.

As long as the playing field is level for producers, because the government has forced them to make the same investments against very cold and very hot weather, the power producer market can benefit from competition. But then there is the transmission and distribution market. It doesn't make sense to have different transmission and distribution networks because this would cost a lot more to build and maintain. Plus, no community would tolerate multiple networks of power lines and transformers all over the place. Have you looked at your electricity bill? Most of the charges on it are not generation charges but transmission charges.

Actually, the storm you are referring to had the coldest and most sustained temps for any record keeping in the state, ever. It was more than a once in 100 years storm. And the largest problem was with the poles/wires not being properly weatherized (that is the part this is still heavily regulated). There were also production problems, as the wind sources in the state froze (fun fact, TX has as much wind power as all of the rest of the USA combined).


See my post above - there is one transmission network, it is regulated (and profits on it regulated), but power producers are allowed to compete. There is a reason that power in TX costs 1/3 that of California, and per the NERC the historical uptime for that grid is as good as any other (despite being 1/4 the size).
 
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The wires/poles can be separated from the power producers. That can be regulated and caps, etc. implemented.

But there is NO GOOD REASON that power producers can't have unfettered access to that grid to compete for customers.


In Texas, despite potential political leanings, this has worked out well. Customers get ONE BILL, and on it is the poles/wires charge (a small fixed rate per kwh, usually about 3-4c/kwh). Then there is a second line for their power utilization from the power producer of their choice.


California utilities are TERRIFIED of the above scenario.


Fun fact - SDG&E (where we live) has THE HIGHEST power rates in the nation. They are also one of the most profitable utilities in the nation per customer. They happen to be heavy political contributors. Coincidence, I think not.
I agree.
The problem is corruption of the regulators. Big win for unfettered capitalism!
 
Actually, the storm you are referring to had the coldest and most sustained temps for any record keeping in the state, ever. It was more than a once in 100 years storm. And the largest problem was with the poles/wires not being properly weatherized (that is the part this is still heavily regulated). There were also production problems, as the wind sources in the state froze (fun fact, TX has as much wind power as all of the rest of the USA combined).
Which is an absolute joke, given that the Dakotas have plenty of wind sources that do not freeze, because unlike in Texas, they built them so they wouldn't freeze.
There is a reason that power in TX costs 1/3 that of California, and per the NERC the historical uptime for that grid is as good as any other (despite being 1/4 the size).
The reason CA's electricity costs so much is a combination of regulatory capture and bailouts. After starting so many fires, PG&E should have gone fully bankrupt, its shareholders should have been wiped out, and if the state had to pay the victims of the fires, it should have taken control of the grid and operated it in the interest of the citizens. The portion of the electricity bills dedicated to paying dividends to shareholders and bonuses to CEOs would have stopped as well. Look at the rates of Silicon Valley Power and Palo Alto Utilities (both city-owned utilities) and compare them to the likes of PG&E and SDG&E.
 
Which is an absolute joke, given that the Dakotas have plenty of wind sources that do not freeze, because unlike in Texas, they built them so they wouldn't freeze.

The reason CA's electricity costs so much is a combination of regulatory capture and bailouts. After starting so many fires, PG&E should have gone fully bankrupt, its shareholders should have been wiped out, and if the state had to pay the victims of the fires, it should have taken control of the grid and operated it in the interest of the citizens.

No argument from me. Bailing out PG&E (and SDG&E - the rate payers are on the hook for 10 years for the fires caused by their lines) was a mistake. A mistake just like bailing out GM, etc. after the financial crisis was a mistake. Doing so only encourages these companies to become fat and non-competitive.
 
We'll have to agree to disagree. My definition of capitalism has always meant an OPEN MARKET, one that has competition. What you are referring to is a gov-sponsored monopoly, I don't consider that capitalism, at all.
Certainly you must understand that there are certain areas (utilities, public health, tragedy of the commons, etc.) where you just don't have a free and open market with everyone having access and information. In these cases you must have effective government regulation.
Utilities are a good example. It's very inefficient to run multiple sets of wires or tubes to every house. These are "natural monopolies" and must have effective regulation.
 
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Certainly you must understand that there are certain areas (utilities, public health, tragedy of the commons, etc.) where you just don't have a free and open market with everyone having access and information. In these cases you must have effective government regulation.
Utilities are a good example. It's very inefficient to run multiple sets of wires or tubes to every house. These are "natural monopolies" and must have effective regulation.

I see you trying to sneak healthcare into this discussion, I'm not touching that one. ;)

The major difference is that you and I draw that line WAY differently.

Me - I think government is THE MOST INEFFICIENT utilizer of resources, and is horrible at innovation (they don't innovate for the most part).



Also - drop the "mutliple lines to each house" bit. I never proposed that. I put forth the TX model, where there is still ONE COMPANY (heavily regulated) that builds the wires. But multiple companies that can plug into that infrastructure and sell power along it. Tesla Energy is even a power producer now in TX. One that allows their customers (powerwall owners and rooftop solar) to get a cut of the profits. That model is absolutely impossible in California, not without still going through the monopolistic entities like SDG&E and PG&E to get a cut.
 
I see you trying to sneak healthcare into this discussion, I'm not touching that one. ;)

The major difference is that you and I draw that line WAY differently.

Me - I think government is THE MOST INEFFICIENT utilizer of resources, and is horrible at innovation (they don't innovate for the most part).



Also - drop the "mutliple lines to each house" bit. I never proposed that. I put forth the TX model, where there is still ONE COMPANY (heavily regulated) that builds the wires. But multiple companies that can plug into that infrastructure and sell power along it. Tesla Energy is even a power producer now in TX. One that allows their customers (powerwall owners and rooftop solar) to get a cut of the profits. That model is absolutely impossible in California, not without still going through the monopolistic entities like SDG&E and PG&E to get a cut.
(Public health, not healthcare.)
For the rest, I think your suggestion to "agree to disagree" is best.
 
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No argument from me. Bailing out PG&E (and SDG&E - the rate payers are on the hook for 10 years for the fires caused by their lines) was a mistake. A mistake just like bailing out GM, etc. after the financial crisis was a mistake.
Didn't the government make money on the GM bailout when it sold its stake several years later? I don't have issues with a car company being publicly traded the same way I do with a public utility that operates in a market that is a natural monopoly.
Doing so only encourages these companies to become fat and non-competitive.
It's my understanding that CPUC guarantees utilities some fixed profit (in %) for any capital they spend on projects like upgrading power lines or building new power plants (yes, PG&E is a generator as well as a grid operator). If that's true then that's absolutely nuts. It's worse than encouraging them to not be competitive, it actually gives them an incentive to be inefficient, because a fixed % of a bigger number is a larger profit. Proper way to do this IMHO (if we're going to still use the IOU model) is to estimate what it should cost and if they overrun, make sure they stay out of bankruptcy BUT any cost overruns eat into:
1. Executive bonuses
2. Shareholder dividends
3. Employee raises

...in that order. Only after executives get no bonuses, dividends are down to $0, and all employees not only get no raises but have also taken a cut in pay are they allowed to ask for rate hikes to cover cost overruns. I'm pretty sure it would never get to step (3) because the shareholders revolt at step (2) and replace the management. And given that (1) is first, the executives should make sure that even that does not happen. They should also have a long (5-10 year) lock in on any stock grants after vesting; since they do not know whether the utility could start a fire even after they leave, this gives them motivation to not skimp on maintenance.
 
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