Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

California Utilities Plan All Out War On Solar, Please Read And Help

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
You are exactly right. Transmission is usually about moving energy 10s or 100s of miles getting energy from one area to another. Historically it was primarily to get power from the very big remote power plants to where the energy is needed as well as interconnect energy load centers to allow more redundancy and trading to allow access to cheaper energy in other markets. Distribution (smaller wires/towers/voltages) is normally the last mile or so of the journey. Capacity related infrastructure are always sized to moment of greatest need, otherwise you see system failures. This means any solution that doesn’t reduce usage during all hours, only reduces reliance on a particular piece of equipment to the extent the new peak usage hour is lower than the prior peak. Historical energy peaks were in the 3 to 5 hours, but since the 6 to 8 pm hours usage is usually only slightly lower, abundant energy at 3 to 5pm doesn’t remove need for transmission lines at 6 to 8pm. Also the vast majority of solar customers still rely on the grid at night so they still need those miles of transmission lines from sometimes remote power plants to keep their power on. Regarding my claim of transmission expansion needs, this only becomes an issue once an area expands beyond say 5 to 10% (actual amount varies by grid) solar penetration (few are there today, but most have that in their goals for the near future). Germany is well into these area of need. I believe the most obvious signs of this in California would be increasing solar curtailments year over year and transmission expansion projects. California would absolutely prefer to ship the solar that extends beyond their own needs to other states rather than curtail (turn off plants giving up free marginal cost energy), but the availability and capacity of lines are the limitation, thus the reference to solar leading to transmission expansion. When you’re the only solar system in the neighborhood your production that is likely 2 to 5 times your needs on a sunny spring day goes to your 2 to 5 closest neighbors only touching distribution line drops and a transformer bus bar (fraction of distribution system). If you get say all 6 customers in a neighborhood on the same transformer, you’re now likely using that transformer more heavily running in reverse during a sunny spring day than it gets used during even the hottest days of summer and sending that power up distribution lines all the way to a substation. If an entire development is largely solar, you will get the same phenomenon, but it will basically reverse direction for part of the day and become a “step up” voltage transformer rather than a “step down” voltage transformer. I guess my point is the equipment still tends to be heavily used and necessary. NEM often offsets some or much of these costs that aren’t significantly reduced in many cases and this is the challenge that I believe utilities will continue to try to address through updated rate structures. A more justified structure might offset fuel and energy type costs and a limited amount of grid type benefit, which is why I believe these proposals will keep coming. Sorry about the novel. These topics are very technical and deep. To your question I will disclose that I’m an avid believer we need to do more to clean up grids and really all outsized sources of pollution or non-sustainable practices, but I consult in the utility arenas and often conduct detailed analysis of the relative economics of many types of renewables including both rooftop and utility scale solar plants. My view is that the more relevant information that is out there, the more informed decisions we make. This response is already really long so I’ll comment on the LLNL rejected energy study separately.
@Bennett327 , Sorry for the late reply. I just became aware of this discussion. What you are saying is that during peak rooftop solar production, the utility companies may already be generating enough electricity. During peak demand, rooftop solar is not generating any electricity to help. Since the grid is built for peak demand, everyone should pay for the grid. Is that a fair summary?

The above is quite plausible, but the near future will look quite different with utility-scale batteries. As you have pointed out, we currently have "very big remote power plants." As utility-scale batteries come online, they don't have to be very remote. It would be much more efficient if they were distributed and near the urban centers. In that scenario, rooftop solar will be invaluable for charging these batteries during peak solar generation. During peak demand, these batteries can power the nearby urban centers without loading down the transmission lines. Therefore, rooftop solar will reduce or eliminate the need to increase grid capacity.

"By this August (2021), the state (CA) will have 1,700 megawatts of new battery capacity — enough to power 1.3 million homes and, in theory, avert a grid emergency on the scale of last year’s.
It won’t be easy. The state’s plan to eliminate greenhouse gas emissions by 2045 may require installing 48.8 gigawatts of energy storage, according to a report by three state agencies — more than five times the output of all the grid-scale batteries currently operating worldwide." (To avoid blackouts, California’s installing more big batteries than all of China )

Could you comment on this? Thanks.
 
Since the grid is built for peak demand, everyone should pay for the grid. Is that a fair summary?
It is complicated, but that is one of the general theories. The details are that the bill wants to increase the subsidy for lower income people in the CARE program. Currently that subsidy is about 30 percent and the bill wants to increase that to 40 or 45 percent and fund it from the proposed fixed charges placed on NEM customers. I think the minimum I pay of $10 a month is reasonable for using the grid as a battery. I would not mind a slight increase but the bill does not address the real issue with grid resiliency. That issue is that there is plenty of cheap solar during the day but it tapers off in early evening when demand goes up. That creates daily stress on the grid and results in the problems with brownouts we had in California last summer.
I think some increase is subsidy may be warranted but my issue is that the people on CARE program are oblivious to the stress on the grid and may be some of the ones that get home and turn on their A/C and load the grid. I do not want to subsidize that kind of behavior.
I did write my Assemblyperson and explained the issue to her. I also warned that the wealthy people that they want to burden are the ones that can afford to buy more batteries and solar and actually self consume more power. That will create a death spiral of decreasing revenue for the IOUs and no one will win.
 
The state’s plan to eliminate greenhouse gas emissions by 2045 may require installing 48.8 gigawatts of energy storage, according to a report by three state agencies — more than five times the output of all the grid-scale batteries currently operating worldwide." (To avoid blackouts, California’s installing more big batteries than all of China )

Could you comment on this? Thanks.
Specifically I fully support the addition of energy storage. I have done the same and while I still send surplus to the grid mid day I also take all my load off the grid when the grid is stressed. I am able to do it because I invested in batteries without an state subsidy but I am taking Federal Investment Tax credit. Even though I have upgraded my batteries I still export to the grid and use that excess to charge my Teslas during late hours.
There are lots of things to comment on but I hope my comments were responsive to your question?
 
Many of use responded as intended to price signals with our TOU programs making the grid substantially more resilient and creating savings for the utility with lower peak demand usage.

Pre-solar PV (Pre-2012) we were on the standard non-TOU E-1 rate structure with PG&E. There was no incentive to avoid high demand times at any part of the day or year on that rate plan.

But once we started on a TOU rate plan in 2012 with solar PV, we now have a central heat pump that uses 50% less energy to provide the same cooling as the unit it replaced; a heat pump water heater, variable speed pool pump, clothes dryer, washing machine, and dishwasher that all never operate during high grid demand; and 2 BEVs that never charge during peak demand. Our contribution to the peak demand part of the duck curve has been to cut in more than half our electricity draw then and there are plenty more on TOU plans responding to price signals the same way. That is where remains tremendous untapped low hanging fruit among the customer base.

We still have to work for a living and have not gone to home batteries at this time due to economics - a well functioning, clean grid is significantly more affordable. But if the silliness of large grid connectivity fee increases transpires, we would be much more encouraged to subsidize the home battery storage and solar PV industries instead.
 
Another low hanging fruit item besides forcing the general population to pay the fair costs of demand management/TOU, the minimum delivery charge needs to go with utilities like PG&E.

Everyone should pay a fixed delivery fee for the convenience of using the grid and maintenance and development thereof. Right now, in PG&E land, if you are net zero or negative, you still pay $10 a month for a minimum delivery charge - purportedly to pay your fair share of this billable item.

If however you use $10 or more a month in net energy, this is waived. Essentially, this is a significant subsidy from net zero to negative users going to net energy consumers.
 
Another low hanging fruit item besides forcing the general population to pay the fair costs of demand management/TOU, the minimum delivery charge needs to go with utilities like PG&E.
.........
If however you use $10 or more a month in net energy, this is waived. Essentially, this is a significant subsidy from net zero to negative users going to net energy consumers.
Mine is described as a Minimum Delivery Charge. It nets out at TrueUp but I pay NBCs. Are you saying that because I have a zero bill I am subsidizing other NEM customers?
 
Last edited:
Mine is described as a Minimum Delivery Charge. It nets out at TrueUp but I pay NBCs. Are you saying that because I have a zero bill I am subsidizing other NEM customers?
Saying everyone who has a PG&E energy bill portion of <$10/mo before the California Climate Credit (CCC) subsidizes those who don’t. The former pays more for infrastructure.

It’s hard to zero out a bill with NEM as overproduction is credited at a measly wholesale rate then you have to subtract off the $10 MDC/mo. That’s a very oversized system to pull that off. We “zero out” but mostly because of the CCCs that everyone gets a couple times a year applied to their utility bills.

Minimum Bill charges
 
Saying everyone who has a PG&E energy bill portion of <$10/mo before the California Climate Credit (CCC) subsidizes those who don’t. The former pays more for infrastructure.

It’s hard to zero out a bill with NEM as overproduction is credited at a measly wholesale rate then you have to subtract off the $10 MDC/mo. That’s a very oversized system to pull that off. We “zero out” but mostly because of the CCCs that everyone gets a couple times a year applied to their utility bills.

Minimum Bill charges
I am hoping to have a zero true up for energy, and if over production goes against the MDC, zeroing that out also would be cool. Oversized, not sure what that would be defined as. As I get more solar, I make my house more comfortable. Might even consider an EV.
 
Some "oversize" to help cover low production in the winter. In our case, we "overproduce" a net 1-2 MWh/yr for this and a few different reasons.
I would just comment that seasonal variations resulting in a zero kWh Net annual production might not be considered oversizing. On the other hand if one has EVs the discretionary consumption can skew the numbers.
For example on two homes I previously owned since driving EVs I have been a net consumer but have always had a NEM credit. Both those were under NEM 1.0. That is harder to do with NEM 2.0 because of NBCs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: iPlug
I would just comment that seasonal variations resulting in a zero kWh Net annual production might not be considered oversizing. On the other hand if one has EVs the discretionary consumption can skew the numbers.
For example on two homes I previously owned since driving EVs I have been a net consumer but have always had a NEM credit. Both those were under NEM 1.0. That is harder to do with NEM 2.0 because of NBCs.
Definitely. We had a similar situation before we added more solar PV a few years ago. At that time we were slightly net consumers of energy but played the TOU game well so no annual charges in those days before minimum delivery charges.

We remain grandfathered into NEM 1.0 so with COVID, our driving has been reduced until very recently with no kids soccer games to drive to much of that time, so more surplus for the last 12 months.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ampster
Given the price of electricity, and how PG&E wants to hose over solar generation but cutting the price for sending energy to the grid, it makes sense for people to try and become much more self reliant. Overdesign of the solar doesn't help esp if there is no true-up. Perhaps the right answer is to use natural gas to generate power locally and charge the batteries when the solar is inadequate. At the peak hour prices, it may make economics sense to do this, and just be able live off the grid, esp if you have batteries to handle storage and need to generate your own power to compensate for bad solar days and winter.