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California Utilities Plan All Out War On Solar, Please Read And Help

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it makes sense for people to try and become much more self reliant.
It makes sense for PV owners to time shift their loads to match their generation. If they do not, they are just putting a stamp of agreement on the utility view that residential PV generation has little commercial value.

I've learned to dislike NEM. It has enabled a class of entitled, rent seeking homeowners. I would never have guessed that I would agree with utilities about anything. Early adopters aside, the Johnny-come-latelys are really only reasonably eligible for TOU
 
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It makes sense for PV owners to time shift their loads to match their generation. If they do not, they are just putting a stamp of agreement on the utility view that residential PV generation has little commercial value.

I've learned to dislike NEM. It has enabled a class of entitled, rent seeking homeowners. I would never have guessed that I would agree with utilities about anything. Early adopters aside, the Johnny-come-latelys are really only reasonably eligible for TOU
So then how do you make having solar cost effective, if you live in California you have utility monopolies that charge outrageous fees for your electricity. Do you remember what happened in Nevada when they got rid of net metering.
 
So then how do you make having solar cost effective

I don't understand dog whistle. 'cost effective' has no meaning for me.
Are you trying to say less expensive than a full grid customer for the identical service ? How much cheaper ?

And why in the world would you think it is the utilities responsibility to subsidize your desire to reduce your bill ?!!
 
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It makes sense for PV owners to time shift their loads to match their generation. If they do not, they are just putting a stamp of agreement on the utility view that residential PV generation has little commercial value.

I've learned to dislike NEM. It has enabled a class of entitled, rent seeking homeowners. I would never have guessed that I would agree with utilities about anything. Early adopters aside, the Johnny-come-latelys are really only reasonably eligible for TOU


The cost of climate change is externalized to the energy market. In order to move to renewable sources, some amount of subsidy is required, at least for a period of time. Solar can play a big role, but it's snot stable enough to be relied on exclusively in most parts of state, even with ample battery power. In the past policy encouraged consumers to use their capital to install solar generation with halfway decent economic benefits to incentive deployment. This also lessened the need to build more grid capacity as the generation was local. But fundamentally, it pitted utility generation AND transport against localized power generation.

If you think solar doesn't generate commercial value, then let's schedule a summer day where every homeowner in the state turns off their solar generation and see what happens. The state government set a set of rules to incentivize solar power generation. That meant the utilities had to deal with adapting. Heavens to Betsy! A utility has to adapt and change their business model! OMG! What kind of craziness is that? Every other business has to adapt, and the utilities need to as well.

Now the utilities want the state to change the rules so that the economic basis of all that private capital being invested in solar production (and all the jobs from them) to keep them from having to adapt. You can say tough, but that capital was capital that the state utilities didn't have to raise and transmission lines etc... that they didn't have to build.

Yes, they can't keep doing things the way they did for the last 50 years. My company and most other companies people work for never had it that good. Granted, the state is sort of run by idiots who don't understand fundamental economics, but don't be surprised when the rules that generated ten's of billions of dollars of private investment are being changed to make that investment be heavily non-economic. Consumers are the other side of the equation, and equation that was not just controlled by market forces but state invention to deal with externalities that the market can't correct.

But if this goes through and prices get even higher, that will change the outcomes of elections. Gov Newsome is facing a recall election, and making him pick between cronies at PG&E and the CA consumers who spent a lot of private capital on solar deployment is a perfectly fair thing to ask.

And if prices keep going up, I'd rather spend the energy on home battery storage than EV's, because at least I can choose to stay on gas powered vehicles instead of EV's. Not sure why the state would want that, but economic incentives work pretty well, and may have outcomes people didn't expect.
 
The cost of climate change is externalized to the energy market. In order to move to renewable sources, some amount of subsidy is required, at least for a period of time.
Absent a carbon tax, I agree. Now see if you can get agreement from your full grid neighbor to pay you.

This also lessened the need to build more grid capacity as the generation was local.
Please retire this argument. Grid capacity is set by peak load, and PV does not contribute during peak load.

If you think solar doesn't generate commercial value, then let's schedule a summer day where every homeowner in the state turns off their solar generation and see what happens.
You are describing forced NEM. Make NEM voluntary for the utility and watch what happens.
 
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Absent a carbon tax, I agree. Now see if you can get agreement from your full grid neighbor to pay you.

It is the purpose of government to set the policies that create the incentives for how to deal with these externalized costs. This is what happens with regulation all the time. Neighbors don't get asked to pay each other. Where were all the cries about how unfair this was to my neighbors when things were passed before?

Perhaps it has less to do with making neighbors pay than a bankrupt utility that seems to find new ways to screw up needing more money to deal with it's shareholder demands. It's pretty darn clear that between incompetency and greed PG&E feels they have no moral hazard to deal with. The right thing would have been for all their shareholders (including consumers) to have been washed out by the settlement and forced to recapitalize from scratch. Maybe then they would learn to adapt instead of coming to me to pay through the nose.

Forget the NEM, baseline utility prices here are some of the highest in the US! That is a sign that things are in bad shape and need fixing. Something is wrong and this attempt to change the rules rather than adapt seems to be what they always do.
 
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It is the purpose of government to set the policies that create the incentives for how to deal with these externalized costs.
Or not. Back in the day, the purpose of government was to execute the the wishes of the majority.

My state of NM just passed a community solar act. I was part of the working group that crafted the legislation, so I got a close view of the goings on. One of the first tenets that had almost universal agreement (excluding me, naturally) was that the solar farm would not increase costs to the rest of the utility class.

Capisch ? This group was adamant that their PV production had no community value that should be compensated.
 
It makes sense for PV owners to time shift their loads to match their generation. If they do not, they are just putting a stamp of agreement on the utility view that residential PV generation has little commercial value.

I've learned to dislike NEM. It has enabled a class of entitled, rent seeking homeowners. I would never have guessed that I would agree with utilities about anything. Early adopters aside, the Johnny-come-latelys are really only reasonably eligible for TOU
Agree. Many years ago, solar PV penetration was negligible and the duck curve was a non-issue. Solar PV was much more expensive, so incentives and grandfathering like NEM 1 were appropriate then to encourage early adopters.

Now in CA, solar PV curtailment is becoming a more common thing for large parts of the day, particularly in spring. Solar PV is also much more affordable now. As long as the rules of the game are clear from the outset of someone newly installing solar, rate plan structures/tarrifs should reflect the current needs of the energy market (not utility needs/wants or residential customer needs/wants).

Everyone should be bound to TOU, solar PV and non-solar PV customers. I'm ok if annual NEM goes away for new installs.
 
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Or not. Back in the day, the purpose of government was to execute the the wishes of the majority.

My state of NM just passed a community solar act. I was part of the working group that crafted the legislation, so I got a close view of the goings on. One of the first tenets that had almost universal agreement (excluding me, naturally) was that the solar farm would not increase costs to the rest of the utility class.

Capisch ? This group was adamant that their PV production had no community value that should be compensated.

I agree NEM should not go on forever but wouldn't the cost shift problem be less serious if POCO's build more energy storage for the grid? It would reduce the duck curve problem and let people without solar benefit from their neighbor's rooftop solar. The current POCO proposal seems punitive towards residential solar. For me, I would be more willing to accept higher fees for residential solar owners if POCO's use the fees for specific solutions (e.g. build out grid energy storage) to better harness residential solar for everyone rather than higher fees just for having residential solar.
 
I agree NEM should not go on forever but wouldn't the cost shift problem be less serious if POCO's build more energy storage for the grid? It would reduce the duck curve problem and let people without solar benefit from their neighbor's rooftop solar. The current POCO proposal seems punitive towards residential solar. For me, I would be more willing to accept higher fees for residential solar owners if POCO's use the fees for specific solutions (e.g. build out grid energy storage) to better harness residential solar for everyone rather than higher fees just for having residential solar.


This is what I mean by utilities refusing to adapt. The current situation is hardly a surprise. PG&E should have moved to build more storage, and decentralized storage at that. Then there would be market for buffering all that solar, and the storage would be helpful in dealing with fluctuations in solar generation as well. But no, they want the rest of the world to conform to their old model. If they had no choice to adapt or bleed shareholder value, they would have to adapt. Especially for shifts that take years to execute.

And still we have very expensive energy costs here, and looks like going up more. Pretty soon it would be cheaper to run onsite gas generators instead of grid power... Just trip the ATS and run your generator test every night.
 
That issue is that there is plenty of cheap solar during the day
This is not true. I found an interesting CAISO site: California ISO - Supply
It has real time and historical data on energy supply and demand. It also breaks down the supply by solar, wind, natural gas, nuclear, etc. I looked at 4/23/21 and 7/31/20 (2 random days). Solar energy never came close to the demand. On 4/23/21, there were quite a few hours where we exported energy, but renewable alone wasn't enough.

We want to achieve 100% renewable. This means we need more solar not just to meet demand but also to charge utility-scale batteries for night-time use. Therefore, we don't have plenty of cheap solar. We need much more.
 
forcing the general population to pay the fair costs of demand management/TOU,
PG&E wants to make this a fairness/equity issue, but it really is not. When I installed solar, how much did you pay? Zero! How much money did PG&E make? Zero! That's why PG&E wants to attack and discourage solar owners. PG&E wants to be the sole installer of solar so they can tack on a profit margin. The solar that I install will cost you nothing. The solar that PG&E installs will cost you lots. PG&E doesn't care about fairness/equity. PG&E only cares about its profit. People who fall for the fairness/equity narrative will only screw themselves.
 
This is what I mean by utilities refusing to adapt. The current situation is hardly a surprise. PG&E should have moved to build more storage, and decentralized storage at that. Then there would be market for buffering all that solar, and the storage would be helpful in dealing with fluctuations in solar generation as well. But no, they want the rest of the world to conform to their old model. If they had no choice to adapt or bleed shareholder value, they would have to adapt. Especially for shifts that take years to execute.

And still we have very expensive energy costs here, and looks like going up more. Pretty soon it would be cheaper to run onsite gas generators instead of grid power... Just trip the ATS and run your generator test every night.
Rates are going up because renewable energy cost more. I believe we need to pay it to fight climate change, but some environmentalists don't want to tell the truth. If renewable energy is cheaper, why are the rates going up? Go to Amazon and price a 22 kW gas generator (about $5K - $6K). Go to Wholesale Solar and price a 22 kW solar kit (about $30K). Gas generator needs to include the cost of natural gas, but solar needs to include cost of battery to be comparable. In the end, renewable costs more.
 
Please retire this argument. Grid capacity is set by peak load, and PV does not contribute during peak load.
Today, we don't really distinguish between generation and transmission capacity since most generation plants are remote. But there is loss of energy when electricity is transmitted over long distance.

In the future, renewable energy must be paired with utility-scale batteries. The batteries can be distributed near urban centers (decentralized). They can be charged before peak load. During peak load, the electricity from these batteries don't have to be transmitted long distance. This reduces the energy loss and transmission capacity of the grid. Rooftop solar will contribute to the charging of these batteries and therefore, indirectly contribute to peak load.
 
You responded to "iPlug said: forcing the general population to pay the fair costs of demand management/TOU,"

PG&E wants to make this a fairness/equity issue, but it really is not. When I installed solar, how much did you pay? Zero! How much money did PG&E make? Zero! That's why PG&E wants to attack and discourage solar owners. PG&E wants to be the sole installer of solar so they can tack on a profit margin. The solar that I install will cost you nothing. The solar that PG&E installs will cost you lots. PG&E doesn't care about fairness/equity. PG&E only cares about its profit. People who fall for the fairness/equity narrative will only screw themselves.
Not sure what you are arguing against here. What does everyone should have to pay the fair costs of demand management/TOU have to do with you installing solar?

The statement was about the "general population", most of whom do not have solar and most who who are on the non-TOU E-1 rate plan.

I have next to no sympathy for PG&E, but about the same for the consumer who thinks they should be able to consume (from the grid) during peak/high demand times as much as they want and at subsidized prices. Yes, on the non-TOU E-1 rate plan, the consumer is subsidized for the electricity delivered during that time. This is the most expensive energy delivered to the grid and requires relatively expensive solutions if demand management is not imposed. Building new peaker NG plants or even more expensive batteries are required in that case.

The CPUC should be pushing everyone onto a TOU plan that makes everyone have skin in the game.
 
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