Charging Station standards

[SByer]

The wonderful thing about standards is...

 

[vfx]

Nissan is asking where to put chargers. There is a focus on SoCal:

The EV Project » Charging Maps

 

[vfx]

More conversation on the j1772:

..., level 2 is anything above the 125 volt limit for level 1 (OK, we are also talking about only 208/240 volt circuits). The upper limit for level 2 charging is 100 amps rating but NEC only allows 80% or 80 amps for a continuous duty load which is what electric vehicle charging is. The EVSE and the related connector does not determine the rate at which a vehicle will charge unless the vehicle's on-board charger is capable of loads greater than the EVSE is capable of supplying. The communications between the EVSE and the vehicle will lower the demand from the vehicle if the EVSE is not capable of supplying the amperage the vehicle is capable of receiving. Most EVSE is going to be rated at 40 amps or something less. Very few (Tesla and BMW units aside) vehicles will actually be capable of receiving more than 32 amps (80% of 40 amps). Major difference between the 40 amp rated units and the 100 amp rated units will be size of the wiring in the connector cord. The J1772 connectors and receptacles are going to be primarily 100 amp rated units (no need to have varying sizes as the pin sizes and locations are predetermined regardless of the amp rating of the EVSE). However, someone will need to provide to UL the units for certification at that amperage.

6.6 kW is the nominal rating for vehicles receiving 30 amps from the EVSE. Since voltage is variable depending on whether the circuit is 208 volts (primarily commercial locations feed from 480 volt three-phase supply circuits) or 240 volts (primarily residential locations where only single-phase power is available) and not constant depending on loads on the circuit and wire size. The 3.3 kW is the nominal rating for vehicles receiving 15 amps from the EVSE.

The 50 kW chargers are going to be connected to three-phase power (primarily 480 volts) and will require 60 plus amps from each phase. FYI, if connected to a single-phase 240 volt circuit as proposed, the current demand would be north of 200 amps. 200 amp service is a common service for a home with central air and other electric intensive appliances like clothes dryers, ovens and stoves.

another

...expect to see 32A (for 40A 208-240V circuits) J1772 cordsets
available by early 2010. It's the 70-80A version that is in limbo.
Reason: low volume. Nobody is stepping up to funding the tooling and
the UL approval process for the 70-80A version.

The existing infrastructure is 32A on 40A 208-240V circuits. Those
circuits are reusable for the new infrastructure, as I indicated in
earlier replies.

There will be 15A J1772 cables (for 20A 208-240V circuits), but those
should not be installed in public infrastructure. Any vehicle that
can use the 15A J1772 cable can also use the 32A J1772 cable.

Conversations are also leading the the idea of legacy chargers remaining in place with the new chargers next to them. There would be a switch that would allow a choice to ghost from either unit.

 

[doug]

Hmm... again it seems the Germans have worked a lot of this out. Can't we follow zee Germans?

Could you remind me what EVSE stands for?

 

[J in MN]

Hmm... again it seems [the Germans have worked a lot of this out. Can't we follow zee Germans?

Could you remind me what EVSE stands for?

We could, but that would be too unpatriotic and modest... :tongue:

EVSE = Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment

 

[vfx]

EV Survey

This only takes a few seconds but has to be done today (10/09/09). Jump on this charger location assessment query if you drive an EV and live in LA.

There will be more of these for different regions as the local power companies get on board.


Plug In America

 

[Serge]

GM’s Fastlane Blog hosted a webchat today with EPRI’s Mark Duvall and GM’s Britta Gross on Electric Infrastructure. I missed it, but somebody else asked a question I had:

4:25 [Comment From John Brown ]
Are charging cables now standardized so that Volt, LEAF and other plugins have the same plug and specs?
4:25 Britta Gross: Yes, GM's Gery Kissel is chair of the SAE J1772 standards committee. The standard is going to a vote this week after two and a half years of work. All major automakers are expected to agree to adhere to these charging standards. All infrastructure that goes in from now on should be J1772 compliant so all plug-in vehicles can use it.

 

[TEG]

...All infrastructure that goes in from now on should be J1772 compliant so all plug-in vehicles can use it...

Should is one of those words that can be interpreted different ways.

Which of these statements best describes the expectation and intent?:

All infrastructure that goes in from now on must be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on ought to be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on better be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on will be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on may be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on might be J1772 compliant ?
All infrastructure that goes in from now on could be J1772 compliant ?


"Should be" sort of implies that it just may happen... Or at least some people think it is the right thing to do even if it doesn't happen.

 

[Serge]

"Should be" sort of implies that it just may happen... Or at least some people think it is the right thing to do even if it doesn't happen.

Well, GM clearly wants all new charge infrastructure to be J1772 standard compliant, however they are not in position to use more assertive language like must or will. DoE, on the other hand, is. At least to the extent of projects they fund. Then, there is always a possibility that some entity may decide to implement non-J1772 charging infrastructure, perhaps based on European-standard or some variant of DC fast charge, so there is an element of uncertainty here

 

[vfx]

Well, GM clearly wants all new charge infrastructure to be J1772 standard compliant,

Yeah, I think it's just one man trying not to speak for others.

 

[TEG]

Synonyms:
Must, ought, should express necessity or duty.
Must expresses necessity or compulsion: I must attend to those patients first. Soldiers must obey orders.
Ought (weaker than must) expresses obligation, duty, desirability: You ought to tell your mother.
Should expresses obligation, expectation, or probability: You are not behaving as you should. Children should be taught to speak the truth. They should arrive at one o'clock.

Should is the weakest of the bunch... Like "we hope they do it".
Perhaps "ought to" would have been better.

 

[dpeilow]

Should is one of those words that manufacturers in standardisation groups love. It gives them some wriggle-room not to do it :wink:

 

[Norbert]

Tesla should ask for the standard chargers to be 70A/80A capable. Even if the Volt and the Leaf wouldn't be able to use more than 30A, they should. Which should mean their next generation will. Besides, Model S or at least BlueStar should sell at comparabele quantities. Building an infrastructure with only 30A seems like building something that is outdated the day after it is on the street.

 

[TEG]

Nissan Leaf sockets from here:

(Quick charge on the left, J1772-2009 on the right)

(The >PBT+PO< on the quick charge seems to describe the insulator material... for eventual recycling... Polybutylene Terephthalate + Propylene Oxide anti-static copolymer)

 

[Serge]

Nissan Leaf sockets from here:
(Quick charge on the left, J1772-2009 on the right)

The article mentions quick charge socket being capable of 50 kW. Is plug design proprietary?

 

[doug]

The article mentions quick charge socket being capable of 50 kW. Is plug design proprietary?

I don't know about proprietary, but it showed up on an early version of the iMiev as well and at the time was said to be 50kW DC.

However, more recently Mitsubishi has described the fast charge port as 200V 3-phase 50kW, so they may now be using a different connector.

Would be nice to have a 50kW standard. Particularly since such stations will be more expensive to set up.

 

[doug]

Would be nice to have a 50kW standard. Particularly since such stations will be more expensive to set up.

I should mention that the existing Mennekes connector design is already capable of 50kW 3-phase. They argue that up to 43kW 3-phase charging with an on-board charger is overall cheaper than DC fast charging.


At any rate, here's a 2008 presentation by TEPCO on those quick-charging stations.

http://www.iea.org/work/2008/transport/TEPCO.pdf

Specifications
-Type: Switching type, constant current power supply
-Input: 3-phase 200V
-Maximum DC output power: 50kW
-Maximum DC output Voltage: 500V
-Maximum DC output Current: 100A

Explains the confusion with the i-MiEV quick charge connector. For some reason Mitsubishi keeps quoting the input of the charging station rather than what the car sees.

 

[TEG]

Should is one of those words that manufacturers in standardisation groups love. It gives them some wriggle-room not to do it :wink:

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt

...The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.

...
3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
carefully weighed before choosing a different course.

 

[Norbert]

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt

...
3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
carefully weighed before choosing a different course.

Full implications "SHOULD" always "be understood and
carefully weighed", in any case, at the order of magnitude we are discussing here. At least that is what I would have "RECOMMENDED". :wink:

 

[vfx]

European Auto Makers Debate EV Charging Standard

At stake in the debate is the public's
acceptance of EVs and plug-in hybrids. Or as
Renault SA project engineer Philippe Dupuy puts
it: "How many cables will you have in the trunk?