Charging with 110

[nwdiver]

yes but there is a big difference between "I checked all the steps required for safety and talked to my utility" and "oh well it's 110v I'll just start charging and hope nothing catches on fire".

And for the safety of all the people you deal with online and off it'd be prudent to speak the lingo of the actual specs for the region.

.... why would a fire start if you start charging at 110v? Resistance + Current makes heat. The car limits current to what the line can handle. If the resistance is low there's no heat.

Like I said... it's voltage DROP that's important. If you're pulling 12A and voltage drops from 125 to 110v that's 180w being dumped somewhere. If voltage drops from 110v to 108v that's ~24w being dumped somewhere. It's voltage DROP that's the critical value.

 

[dhanson865]

Any 'fire' would be on the utility side since that's where the voltage drop occurs.

I already showed you that isn't the case with

https://i.imgur.com/7Jw5E01.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eLR6p04.jpg

 

[dhanson865]

.... why would a fire start if you start charging at 110v? Resistance + Current makes heat. The car limits current to what the line can handle. If the resistance is low there's no heat.

Like I said... it's voltage DROP that's important. If you're pulling 12A and voltage drops from 125 to 110v that's 180w being dumped somewhere. If voltage drops from 110v to 108v that's ~24w being dumped somewhere. It's voltage DROP that's the critical value.

and that drop can happen inside the breaker box, or inside the wall. Thus the fire inside the house.

 

[nwdiver]

I already showed you that isn't the case with

https://i.imgur.com/7Jw5E01.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eLR6p04.jpg

..... the voltage drop occurred where the fire was because physics... can't have an electrical fire without a drop in voltage... also because physics.

and that drop can happen inside the breaker box, or inside the wall. Thus the fire inside the house.

ok.... what does that have to do with starting voltage?

208v is common with 3 phase power. If you plug in and see 206v at a hotel that's fine no need to worry. If you plug in at home and voltage drops from 235v to 206v there is very much a reason to worry.

Point is that 'Normal' voltage is ~irrelevant. It doesn't tell you much. It's voltage DROP you need to worry about....

 

[dhanson865]

..... the voltage drop occurred where the fire was because physics... can't have a fire without a drop in voltage... also because physics.

The voltage dropped there because the wiring inside that wall going to that outlet was substandard. The person that charged their car there had used that outlet for years and not plugging an EV into it got reasonable voltages. As soon as they put a continuous load on it the wires heated up and the loop began (resistance, heat, repeat). The voltage drop didn't occur because of a problem with the utility or the breaker, just the wiring inside that wall to that outlet.

"ok.... what does that have to do with starting voltage?" You can't know how much the voltage dropped if you don't have a starting voltage to compare to. Everything is relative. So step one in knowing if the circuit is good is checking the voltage without a load and then checking voltage with a load. That's when you see the voltage drop.

If you constantly call it 110v and someone thinks that is the starting voltage that's when bad troubleshooting occurs. I see tons of people posting why is my outlet/evse getting hot type posts with only a single voltage mentioned. They obviously don't know what the starting voltage is and they don't know the drop in voltage. They don't even know the nominal voltage because they are calling it 110v and they live in an area that doesn't have 110v service.

If every post about these sort of problems mentioned a starting voltage and a voltage under load I wouldn't consider this an issue. But every post I see says the public doesn't understand voltage drop and they don't understand what the nominal voltage should be.

I say not discussing all of those concepts is hand waving. If you want to educate about how to measure voltage drop in the real world go for it. But don't ignore it and just say 110v 130v whatever I don't care.

 

[dhanson865]

208v is common with 3 phase power. If you plug in and see 206v at a hotel that's fine no need to worry. If you plug in at home and voltage drops from 235v to 206v there is very much a reason to worry.

208v is common with 3 phase power but the 120v outlets at a site like that will still put out 120v not 104v. If you see 104 at a 120v outlet I'd say that is a problem. Don't use the outlet.

I didn't say 208v is a problem. Realistically voltage drop is the issue if you are in an area that is supposed to be 208v and you see 215v that'll work safely but its out of spec. It also risks you being in a 240v area thinking you are dealing with 208v and you really have a drop from 240v to 215v which is a sign of a problem on top of it being out of spec.

In north america you have 3 common voltages to expect

* 120v
* 208v
* 240v

Anything more than 5% off of these 3 targets is a reason to stop and double check what you are dealing with.

 

[nwdiver]

The voltage dropped there because the wiring inside that wall going to that outlet was substandard. The person that charged their car there had used that outlet for years and not plugging an EV into it got reasonable voltages. As soon as they put a continuous load on it the wires heated up and the loop began (resistance, heat, repeat). The voltage drop didn't occur because of a problem with the utility or the breaker, just the wiring inside that wall to that outlet.

"ok.... what does that have to do with starting voltage?" You can't know how much the voltage dropped if you don't have a starting voltage to compare to. Everything is relative. So step one in knowing if the circuit is good is checking the voltage without a load and then checking voltage with a load. That's when you see the voltage drop.

If you constantly call it 110v and someone thinks that is the starting voltage that's when bad troubleshooting occurs. I see tons of people posting why is my outlet/evse getting hot type posts with only a single voltage mentioned. They obviously don't know what the starting voltage is and they don't know the drop in voltage. They don't even know the nominal voltage because they are calling it 110v and they live in an area that doesn't have 110v service.

If every post about these sort of problems mentioned a starting voltage and a voltage under load I wouldn't consider this an issue. But every post I see says the public doesn't understand voltage drop and they don't understand what the nominal voltage should be.

I say not discussing all of those concepts is hand waving. If you want to educate about how to measure voltage drop in the real world go for it. But don't ignore it and just say 110v 130v whatever I don't care.

To know what your starting voltage is you need to look at YOUR starting voltage.... you can't rely on what's typical. As you put it....

Correcting that misconception might save someone from burning their house down.

 

[dhanson865]

To know what your starting voltage is you need to look at YOUR starting voltage.... you can't rely on what's typical. As you put it....

In North America you have 3 common voltages to expect

* 120v
* 208v
* 240v

Anything more than 5% off of these 3 targets is a reason to stop and double check what you are dealing with. You better have a good reason to trust something that is not near one of these 3 nodes in a residential setting.

 

[nwdiver]

In North America you have 3 common voltages to expect

* 120v
* 208v
* 240v

Anything more than 5% off of these 3 targets is a reason to stop and double check what you are dealing with. You better have a good reason to trust something that is not near one of these 3 nodes in a residential setting.

ok... Should I be worried?

 

[dhanson865]

ok... Should I be worried?

No I wouldn't worry about 224v but I'd sure wonder why you have it. What's nominal in at your meter and why is your observed voltage so far out of spec?

and I'd say that there is a world of difference between out of spec 120v and out of spec 208 or 240v in terms of safety.

 

[eevee-fan]

TX, so wind turbine running a little slow tonight.

 

[nwdiver]

No I wouldn't worry about 224v but I'd sure wonder why you have it. What's nominal in at your meter and why is your observed voltage so far out of spec?

What if it was 250v before I started charging....

 

[cduzz]

What if it was 250v before I started charging....

I'm going to say yes... you're dumping almost 1kwh into the wires/outlets in that circuit. If you're using a really long run that heat's spread out over a lot of wire and probably not much to worry about, but even so I'd find someone with a thermal camera and see what's heating up.

 

[ewoodrick]

120 volts, not 110. And here come the cows, moseying on home. I've made no argument for 120v over 240v, that wasn't the point. Use whatever you want, what works for your situation and what is convenient. In truth, it makes no difference for battery life, 120v 16 amps or 240v 48 amps, for example, slow is slow, how patient can you afford to be? I wouldn't go out of my way to use a 120v circuit but if that's what you have and it serves your needs/works in your situation, no worries. There is no disadvantage to the 120v except speed, which as I said is exaggerated at low temperatures. The dogma here is a 240v circuit is a minimum for home charging. .

I have one car that only charges off of 120V and it is EXTREMELY happy. Not everyone parks their cars in 0 degree weather. There is no slow, no impatient. Matter of fact, it doesn't even need to plug in every night.

L1 vs L2 that's it.... 110/115/120 (whatever) vs 208/210/240 (whatever)
???? Based on what? You're suggesting a battery designed to handle 60kW of regen and >100kW of fast charging is going to notice the difference between 1.3kW and 11kW? It would be a gross exaggeration to call that a rounding error.
????

Based on all sorts of facts. Why can't you understand that no everyone needs the fastest charging? Not everyone can afford the cost of installation. And some folks do ask the question "If it costs me $1000 to install, am I saving money???"

 

[ewoodrick]

I'm going to say yes... you're dumping almost 1kwh into the wires/outlets in that circuit. If you're using a really long run that heat's spread out over a lot of wire and probably not much to worry about, but even so I'd find someone with a thermal camera and see what's heating up.

Absolutely agree with this.

Think of it this way, that's a portable heater in your walls. That's not a great place to be.

 

[nwdiver]

And some folks do ask the question "If it costs me $1000 to install, am I saving money???"

??? Who's suggesting you spend $1k?

You should be using a dedicated 110v outlet for charging anyway. If you're using a dedicated ~110v outlet upgrading it to ~220v costs <$100. I agree you don't 'need' a HPWC or even a NEMA 14-50 but you should be working toward being able to plug in at L2. L1 is not 'fine' for daily use.

 

[PACEMD]

Lookie, lookie, the cows go marching two by two hurrah, hurrah, the cows go marching two by two......hurrah, hurrah........the cows go marching two by two.........the little one stopped to say 110 volts, and they all go...........a long run for a short beside the point jump.........

 

[cduzz]

Lookie, lookie, the cows go marching two by two hurrah, hurrah, the cows go marching two by two......hurrah, hurrah........the cows go marching two by two.........the little one stopped to say 110 volts, and they all go...........a long run for a short beside the point jump.........

Hey if you're fine with spending the money to leave a space-heater set to max outside 12 hours a day, for it's your money. It's not unsafe or going to hurt your car. Maybe electricity is almost free where you live; if I charge my car at home I absolutely notice (and my wife notices) the increase in the bill...

Hopefully you're using a dedicated circuit, or if it isn't you know to turn off all large appliances on that circuit.

Good reasons for using 120, IMO, are:

You're not paying for it -- IE you're charging at work or have a long extension cord to your neighbor's barn.

You have a dedicated plug that you plan on using for both your car and your leaf blower / electric lawn mower / Christmas lights.

Otherwise, if you have a dedicated plug that you don't mind making a 100% only usable for charging a car, it is super cheap to put in a 15a or 20a 240v circuit breaker and boom your charger is twice as efficient as it was before. All you need to do is put a new breaker in, a new plug (nema 6-15 or nema 6-20) and some electrical tape (not green or white) on the "now hot" wire and you're good to go. If the wires in the wall were fine at 120v they'll be fine at 240v at the same amperage.

There's a good chance that some random un-inspected 40 year old NEMA 5-15 outlet isn't really up to the task of charging a car 72 hours a week every week for a couple years, but I assume you've taken a good look at the plug your using and and have made a well-reasoned decision to charge this way.

As for which is better for the battery? Nobody knows but everyone's got an opinion.

 

[Silicon Desert]

The US has been on 120v and 240v since sometime last century. Regular outlets are 120v unless you are in some weird sort of setup where there isn't modern electrical service.

yes, good point. I still remember 110 to 115. I always wonder why people still refer to it as 110 and 220. Maybe because there are still a lot of really old guys around like me that still remember. It's a technicality I guess since we all know what we are talking about.

 

[nwdiver]

As for which is better for the battery? Nobody knows but everyone's got an opinion.

The idea that 1.3kW is somehow better than 11kW but 200kW is also fine is almost as silly as the notion that tiny neodymium magnets somehow help blood flow while MRIs don't kill you.....

There's a difference between having an opinion and being factually incorrect

It's a technicality I guess since we all know what we are talking about.

I think some people just enjoy being uselessly pedantic