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Chelsea's opinion

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I’m sorry, I just don’t see participating on a thread in a different public forum as talking behind your backs, especially given how many of us participate in more than one.

This was in answer to someone pointing out that your are a member of this forum. My point was that in regard to recent discussions of matters regarding Tesla, you haven't been really been participating here, while discussing these matters in a lot of other places, and that this contributes to not-perceiving you as an actual member of this forum. I'm sure this has changed now.

Second, I did not question whether Tesla was making improper use of DOE funds...any question was aimed squarely at the DOE, and what considerations are going into their funding choices.

In either case it would mean that Tesla is using DOE funds for something that you question to be a "proper" use of tax payer money, which would also say something about Tesla's activities as not being in the public interest.

From the original Ecotality announcement, I’ve said that part of the policy discussion should be to what extent “restricted access” public infrastructure should be publicly funded (restricted access could be based on connectors, networks, private parking, etc.) But it was also a response to a LEAF driver who was accusing me of not really being an EV advocate because I wasn’t placing extra emphasis on serving the specific infrastructure needs of LEAF drivers- i.e., making pushing for CHAdeMO installations my first priority - since there are currently more of them on the road than other EVs.

I would agree that CHAdeMO installations currently ought to be first priority, as there are in fact thousands of Leaf owners who were promised fast chargers (and also had reason to expect government support for them, AFAIK).

And I'd think the NRG deal does honor that priority (priority does not imply exclusivity).

I don't think it is the government's primary role to ensure that there is a single connector format, or even to pick one. However it is in fact the government's role, if it wants to, to support fast charging as a part of supporting alternate fuels.

I'd like to add that regarding Tesla, I perceive the charging concept to be an integral part of Tesla's vision, which is to seek, as directly as possible, a long-term solution for electric cars to fully replace ICE's, and, even earlier, to demonstrate the practical feasibility of this endeavor.
 
Keep up the good work on EVs. "Who Killed..." was such an influence on my life that it led pretty much directly to me buying a Tesla, and you were a big part of that!

AP's point and sentiment perfectly describes my own appreciation for you, Chelsea. It is incredibly generous for you to spend the thousands of keystrokes on us in this forum that you just have, in the last 24 hours. I am personally fascinated to learn of your own close early relationship with Tesla, and sorry that Bob's departure has made that awkward. I am a company founder myself, and had some very difficult partings with some employees, some of whom were/are very good friends. I tried to repair those hard feelings whenever possible, and I am grateful that my lawyers did not dissuade me from doing so. I have also been concerned about some of the corporate culture at Tesla, despite admiring their vision and extraordinary string of accomplishments. At the end of the day, what keeps me coming back for more is not just the product, but Elon's clear intent to contribute to the EV movement as a whole. I think his maverick approach to almost everything is in fact EXACTLY what Detroit needed to wake up. Having seen Bob Lutz speak recently at a conference in Seattle, it was that much more apparent to me how much inertia and hubris and ignorance pioneers like Elon-- and YOU-- have had to contend with.

So, again, thanks for dropping by and being such a deeply thoughtful and insightful and committed part of the discussion and the overall movement. We all owe you a lot, in my book.
 
AP's point and sentiment perfectly describes my own appreciation for you, Chelsea. It is incredibly generous for you to spend the thousands of keystrokes on us in this forum that you just have, in the last 24 hours. I am personally fascinated to learn of your own close early relationship with Tesla, and sorry that Bob's departure has made that awkward. I am a company founder myself, and had some very difficult partings with some employees, some of whom were/are very good friends. I tried to repair those hard feelings whenever possible, and I am grateful that my lawyers did not dissuade me from doing so. I have also been concerned about some of the corporate culture at Tesla, despite admiring their vision and extraordinary string of accomplishments. At the end of the day, what keeps me coming back for more is not just the product, but Elon's clear intent to contribute to the EV movement as a whole. I think his maverick approach to almost everything is in fact EXACTLY what Detroit needed to wake up. Having seen Bob Lutz speak recently at a conference in Seattle, it was that much more apparent to me how much inertia and hubris and ignorance pioneers like Elon-- and YOU-- have had to contend with.

So, again, thanks for dropping by and being such a deeply thoughtful and insightful and committed part of the discussion and the overall movement. We all owe you a lot, in my book.

+1. You said it so much more eloquently than I would have, vger.
 
This was in answer to someone pointing out that your are a member of this forum. My point was that in regard to recent discussions of matters regarding Tesla, you haven't been really been participating here, while discussing these matters in a lot of other places, and that this contributes to not-perceiving you as an actual member of this forum. I'm sure this has changed now.

That’s very true, I don’t participate here much. My participation on any of these forums is sporadic; the volume is a lot to keep up with, given other work. I also tend to do more reading than talking. But of the main forums this is the one I feel least welcome in, so I don’t jump in much.

either case it would mean that Tesla is using DOE funds for something that you question to be a "proper" use of tax payer money, which would also say something about Tesla's activities as not being in the public interest.

Could be a semantic issue over the word choice of “proper”, but I still see the focus on DOE (or whomever is making funding decisions), not Tesla. The only way I’d see Tesla’s use as not “proper” is if the use wasn’t allowed in the funding terms, and I’ve no reason to believe that’s ever happened. And obviously we don’t know exactly whose dollars are funding the Supercharger network development- but as the network specifically supports Model S, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be eligible in the DOE terms.

And I actually don’t think that all of the activities of the funded companies (by DOE, CA, etc.) are in the public interest. But to be clear, I don’t think Tesla is in that category.

I would agree that CHAdeMO installations currently ought to be first priority, as there are in fact thousands of Leaf owners who were promised fast chargers (and also had reason to expect government support for them, AFAIK).

Among fast charging installations, yes- and I support that. Among all of the different things to work on toward getting cars on the road and where I personally can best add value to that effort? I’m not so sure. But I did specifically appoint a member for the LEAF advisory group with this issue in mind.

I totally agree that there’s been lots of over-promising to the LEAF drivers...which goes to my earlier point about wanting to see more moderation and better expectation-setting around fast charging and public infrastructure (among other things).

I don't think it is the government's primary role to ensure that there is a single connector format, or even to pick one.

Maybe not, but I think it’s a discussion these agencies should be having with relevant stakeholders when planning the goals and considerations for funding, and that advocates who work on policy should be discussing amongst themselves. Same with networks, etc.

it is in fact the government's role, if it wants to, to support fast charging as a part of supporting alternate fuels.

Yup.

I'd like to add that regarding Tesla, I perceive the charging concept to be an integral part of Tesla's vision, which is to seek, as directly as possible, a long-term solution for electric cars to fully replace ICE's, and, even earlier, to demonstrate the practical feasibility of this endeavor.

I understand, and don’t disagree with fast charging as part of their vision. I question some of how they’ve gone about it and the motivation behind those choices, but fast charging is totally aligned with Tesla’s expressed mission.
 
The hundreds planned for CA alone just between the Ecotality and NRG projects in their time frames?

Let me do a bit boring math:

Tesla is currently installing multiple SuperChargers per location, perhaps 15 - 20 in California (or quite soon).

The Leaf has a range that's maybe a third or a fourth of a Model S. Let's say a third. In two dimensions (N/s and E/W), this results in a factor of 9x.

The charging speed of CHAdeMO is not much more than half of Tesla's SuperCharger, so one might want twice as many to support the same number of cars, plus there are already more Leafs than Model S. So that's may be another factor of 2x. Altogether 18x.

So for 15 SuperCharger's the equivalent in CHAdeMO chargers might be 15 * 18, which is 270.

As far as I know, the NRG deal is for 200 chargers in 4 years. So that's less than that, and will additionally take 4 years instead of a few months.
 
AP's point and sentiment perfectly describes my own appreciation for you, Chelsea. It is incredibly generous for you to spend the thousands of keystrokes on us in this forum that you just have, in the last 24 hours. I am personally fascinated to learn of your own close early relationship with Tesla, and sorry that Bob's departure has made that awkward. I am a company founder myself, and had some very difficult partings with some employees, some of whom were/are very good friends. I tried to repair those hard feelings whenever possible, and I am grateful that my lawyers did not dissuade me from doing so. I have also been concerned about some of the corporate culture at Tesla, despite admiring their vision and extraordinary string of accomplishments. At the end of the day, what keeps me coming back for more is not just the product, but Elon's clear intent to contribute to the EV movement as a whole. I think his maverick approach to almost everything is in fact EXACTLY what Detroit needed to wake up. Having seen Bob Lutz speak recently at a conference in Seattle, it was that much more apparent to me how much inertia and hubris and ignorance pioneers like Elon-- and YOU-- have had to contend with.

So, again, thanks for dropping by and being such a deeply thoughtful and insightful and committed part of the discussion and the overall movement. We all owe you a lot, in my book.

Ok, see- now you just made me blush! :) But thank you, and Bonnie, AP, and everyone for such a warm reception since I've jumped into this thread. In the end, this is all a huge group effort, and there are lots of challenges (hubris and inertia being powerful and plentiful ones in this industry!) But if it was all easy, it wouldn't be as fun.
 
...
So for 15 SuperCharger's the equivalent in CHAdeMO chargers might be 15 * 18, which is 270.
...

To date, the deployed CHAdeMOs have been disappointingly unreliable. For people to trust that they can make a trip beyond their one-charge range, they will likely need some redundancy to find a "plan B" if their preferred charger is down or tied up by a car (ICE or otherwise) parked and locked in the space.

Gas stations have attendants that make sure the pumps are working, that cars move along when done, and call for help if something is broken...
 
I understand, and don’t disagree with fast charging as part of their vision. I question some of how they’ve gone about it and the motivation behind those choices, but fast charging is totally aligned with Tesla’s expressed mission.

Having seen and understood their choice of connector, no other would hold up in comparison, even close. :)

And other than the connector (which was designed for electrical compatibility with SAE DC combo, when that wasn't even available yet), I'm not sure which other relevant "choice" there was to make.
 
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That’s very true, I don’t participate here much. My participation on any of these forums is sporadic; the volume is a lot to keep up with, given other work. I also tend to do more reading than talking. But of the main forums this is the one I feel least welcome in, so I don’t jump in much.
Sure we're a tough crowd, but don't you enjoy a challenge? I don't have thousands of posts on Seeking Alpha battling John Petersen and his minions because they are nice to me :wink: Besides, I think most of us here like you and appreciate your efforts, we are just confused by your positions sometimes, which you've helped clarify with your posting here. I can't imagine you have the time or the need to be a regular here, and I figure if you say something some of us disagree with and we start bashing you you'll eventually find out and stop in to defend yourself. :smile: You're always welcome, even when you're wrong :biggrin:
 
To date, the deployed CHAdeMOs have been disappointingly unreliable. For people to trust that they can make a trip beyond their one-charge range, they will likely need some redundancy to find a "plan B" if their preferred charger is down or tied up by a car (ICE or otherwise) parked and locked in the space.

Gas stations have attendants that make sure the pumps are working, that cars move along when done, and call for help if something is broken...

Good point. I think my calculation already accommodates plan-Bs, through the distribution of chargers.
 
That’s very true, I don’t participate here much. My participation on any of these forums is sporadic; the volume is a lot to keep up with, given other work. I also tend to do more reading than talking. But of the main forums this is the one I feel least welcome in, so I don’t jump in much.
Can you elaborate on this?
If that's difficult or uncomfortable, perhaps a simpler question: Do you have any requests or recommendations on how to fix that?
So you're saying you hate everything about Tesla, Chelsea?!
Not sure if this is tounge in cheek but i normally find Chelsea to be pro Tesla and definately pro EV.

I normally appreciate her comments and her sound logic. Few people have done as much to advace the cause of EVs as Chelsea.
I think that's indicative of the issues -- one, there is A LOT of content here and it is hard to keep up even within one thread. The not welcome part is that Chelsea appears pro-EV but not Tesla > Leaf > iMiev > whatever else. She will treat each separately against her idea of the perfect car, but not go through the ups and downs of Yay-Tesla and Boo-Bad-News on Tesla.

Only so many hours in the day, spend them however is best for you.

For me, I geeked out about Tesla starting roughly 18 months ago after finding other cars unsatisfactory. Sure I may prefer the Gen3, whenever that arrives, but I needed a car sooner than that. The Sig Model S was the best choice I had at the time, and I'm having a wonderful time with it. Therefore I haunt the Tesla sites, not others.
 
Absolutely! I don’t think you’ll find many people who think I don’t want sexy, cool EVs. I am constantly pushing for more passion-based marketing and education campaigns that include how fun they are to drive (yeah, some more than others!) and the other emotional and visceral experiences of using an EV. "Cool" has always been the #1 attraction to EVs, even to many that some of you probably wouldn't think of as so cool. :)

However, I think that even “affordable” EVs can be fun, sexy, and cool too- and are worth pursuing. That’s all.
I agree that affordable EVs can be sexy and cool, but I would argue that because these properties are subjective, it's virtually impossible to simply design a cheap EV that is sexy and cool.

It's easier to do so with ICE cars, because any ICE car will be compared to all other ICE cars, and there are a lot of cool and sexy ICE cars out there, and those associations will rub off. A new EV will be compared to all other EVs out there, and there are a lot of uncool EVs out there, which also rubs off.

If I had a Leaf, and I told someone that my car was electric, they would automatically associate my car with the electric cars they know of, which includes golf carts, mobility scooters, Th!nks, etc. These are bad associations, and will lead to them thinking that my Leaf is uncool, regardless of how good the Leaf actually is. It is my view that Tesla with the Model S/X is doing absolutely vital work reshaping public perception. When Tesla gets more traction with the work it's doing, it's possible that if I say I have a Leaf, people will go "Oh, like the Model S! That's cool!". In the long term, I am certain that what Tesla is doing with the Model S/X will do much more for the EV cause than anything they could have achieved by making yet another EV with a 100 mile range. If they had made an EV with a 100 mile range, that would almost certainly have put more EVs on the road in the short term, but it wouldn't have done much about public perception, and before long one would run out of customers.

I agree here too. I am not opposed to fast charging, really. Some of it should be out there, for the psychological aspects as well as actual range extension. It’s some of the framing I disagree with- trying to suggest the LEAF becomes a true road trip car with a little fast charging, for example. And some of the estimates of how many are needed and when are way overblown, and often created by those with a vested interest, like the charging companies. It makes sense to stay a couple steps ahead of deployed vehicle volumes, but not ten. On that point, I’ve publicly complimented Tesla’s approach to the number of initial Supercharger locations- 100 makes total sense. The hundreds planned for CA alone just between the Ecotality and NRG projects in their time frames? Total overkill, and makes their mission of a viable business plan that much harder. It’s also not the best speed for all locations- sometimes L2 is better, and vice-versa. I get the whole "chicken/egg" issue around fast charging, and public infrastructure in general. In a variety of ways, I’d just like to see some moderation around expectation-setting on required fast charger volumes, installation promises, and just how much having DC charging will enhance the day-to-day experience of driving today’s EVs. It is one of the features that will make EVs attractive to more people, but only one.
I agree that CHAdeMO is being rolled out in a suboptimal fashion.

Tesla is doing it the right way, I think. They have a more capable plug, and they are setting up chargers where they will be needed by mass-market vehicles in the future. Five years into the future, Daimler will come with an EV with a 200-300 mile range battery option on the top range version, and they will make a big fuss about the car being Tesla charger compatible, saving so and so many hours on long trips. Then Infiniti will follow Daimler's lead, and then the rest will follow, one by one. Tesla is setting itself up to become a badge of quality, and other manufacturers will end up going to great lengths to get as much of that quality-feel as possible.

But on a similar topic, I think that the plug arguments are unnecessary. There's no need to agree on a single standard, because for fast-charging, there's room for more than one standard. I think CHAdeMO will become the standard for smaller range vehicles, at least in Europe, and Tesla will become the standard for longer range vehicles. EVs will be built with long-range or short-range in mind, and be fitted with the appropriate plug. Short range vehicles have no need to go where the Tesla chargers are placed, as they are mostly placed between cities, and long-range vehicles have no need to use the CHAdeMO chargers, because they are placed in cities, where a night of L2 charging is sufficient for several days worth of driving.
 
For me, I geeked out about Tesla starting roughly 18 months ago after finding other cars unsatisfactory. Sure I may prefer the Gen3, whenever that arrives, but I needed a car sooner than that. The Sig Model S was the best choice I had at the time, and I'm having a wonderful time with it. Therefore I haunt the Tesla sites, not others.

+1 That sums it up for me too.