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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Which does rather change the business case for free supercharging for life since it inverts the US usage pattern.
Not really. US population distribution is quite different from China, so China needs to deploy more (~10 for each mega city per Veronica Wu) super charger stations in city area. But super charger is still for long distance and occasional charging purpose. Every Tesla owner in China has HPWC installed.
It would be interesting to know based on this usage model if Tesla has built into the base cost of the Model S in China additional $ for administrative overhead to cover potentially higher supercharging expenses.
Tesla’s China President Resigns After Less Than 9 Months - Bloomberg
Another China exec resigns...
Another China exec resigns...
IMO, Veronica Wu got the boot for using non-approved distribution channels. Or, more to the point, for Elon getting informed about this practice in public by the press. Elon strikes me as the kind of CEO who does not like to be publicly caught off-guard.
Krugerrand
Meow
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Very good call. I remember that on the Q3 call. Elon did NOT sound happy about the whole Tmall.com mess.
People who called you a FUDster at least owe you an apology. You were on the ball regarding Wu ****ing up big time. It's going to be interesting to see deliveries into China over the next few quarters : is the Tesla sales model also going to work in China or was local management right in searching more creative sales channels (and is the resignation/firing of Wu the real mistake here).
The biggest question about this is, it is pretty clear that Elon did not know about T-Mall (the whole thing was pulled AFTER the angry call from California according to reports in Chinese media back then, the question if he knew about it prior to call or not is irrelevant here).
I wonder if they got OK to sell cars to bulk sellers, i have hard time believing they didnt, at least some of the Mgmt should have seen it.
The current hot topic about Wu leaving is the rumor that some of the bulk buyers can give cars back if they fail to sell them, something that is currently happening, this would be **** hits the fan event, again its just rumor, i felt like sharing it with you, not every rumor comes true. Massive discounts from major premium car mfg are also evident as there are signs of stress in chinese car market btw.
I wonder if they got OK to sell cars to bulk sellers, i have hard time believing they didnt, at least some of the Mgmt should have seen it.
The current hot topic about Wu leaving is the rumor that some of the bulk buyers can give cars back if they fail to sell them, something that is currently happening, this would be **** hits the fan event, again its just rumor, i felt like sharing it with you, not every rumor comes true. Massive discounts from major premium car mfg are also evident as there are signs of stress in chinese car market btw.
Krugerrand
Meow
Huh? We're all speculating/guessing here. There's been no confirmation of any such 'mess up' by Veronica Wu. Meaning, there could be another reason or combination of reasons. For all we know she's had a tragedy in the family. Or, she may not have been the one to go down the Tmall road, but as the head honcho takes automatic responsibility. As a self-proclaimed expert of 'I told you so', first rule of thumb is to actually make sure you've got the facts otherwise you look like a really big dufus. So let's wait and see if any facts come to light before we proclaim such a victory.
If only people had extended the same courtesy to Ingenieur before calling him a FUDster, right?
Back on topic : had it been personal reasons, I am pretty sure it would have been mentioned in the press release. Instead I would bet good money on Elon Musk not being happy to learn about dealer sales from the freaking press during a high profile conference call.
Krugerrand
Meow
If only people would reign it in all the time around here, the forum might be a happier place for some individuals.
I'm not pretty sure personal reasons would be mentioned in the press release (some people are intensely private), but I am pretty sure that if personal reasons had been listed in the press that there would be a large contingency of people who did not believe that it was personal reasons ie, when Rawlinson left Tesla for personal reasons and people didn't believe it and also thought his leaving (along with Sampson's) was the end of the company. One thing about people, you can always depend on them to behave human. :wink:
Agree with this 100%. There could be a number of reasons.
if I was to speculate I would say it's NOT because of the Tmall thing. There are probably a million other possibilities that we can't even imagine because we don't work for the company. Or she could have left on her own for personal reasons.
Ingeneur is definitely a FUDster with an agenda if you read his history of posts. nothing wrong with having people like that here but let's not pretend he doesn't have some agenda of his own. Even IF he is right on this then that doesn't change that he's a FUDster, even a blind person will catch a fly once in a while.
Knock it off. Agree or disagree with Ingeneur, but no name calling please.
Couple of points. Tesla undoubtedly had a long waiting list for cars in China. Remember the Chinese guy who wrecked his Tesla as a protest for how long it took to get it? Selling a hundred or so cars to a reseller would piss off even more people. And Tesla is moving heaven and earth elsewhere in the world to remain true to its direct sales model. So it is very unlikely that Tesla corporate would sanction effectively new Tesla cars being resold at Tmall.
Yet it appears that cars were being sold there, and Tmall is a company that has a reputation to uphold and apparently makes sure it has agreements with manufacturers? If so, that points to Tesla China going off the rails. At the very least, they didn't do a good enough job of policing their sales to make sure private buyers weren't buying just to flip the cars (which is the other possibility).
Either way, the head of Tesla China leaving soon after this got exposed in a conference call is just too much of a co-incidence. And the replacement is an internal hire who was no doubt very busy with Supercharger build outs. His background isn't a natural fit for heading up all of China operations. So, hasty departure and replacement (for some reason, I'm thinking of Star Wars Episode IV when Vader kills the Deathstar commander and on the spot promotes the second in command...).
In the big scheme of things, this should just be a blip in the road for Tesla. It may impact 4Q sales. Can anyone say restatement? It may not be that bad, but it is within the realm of possibility.
On the subject of overall demand for Tesla in China - well, I agree with an earlier poster that the best way to gauge demand is to count the number of sales and services centers Tesla has in the country...
A couple more thoughts on China. I was struck by this picture recently posted in the Charging Infrastructure forum of a Beijing Supercharger completely blocked by ICE cars parking in it.
Ever since China opened up to foreign investment in the 1990s, people and companies have been trying to cash in on China's economic renaissance. I once read a book about what happened to a well intentioned investment bank that sunk almost a $1B into various investments in China. They all ended up going south - not because the underlying business was bad, but because the Chinese "partners" arranged things to essentially strip out the business value away from the foreign investors. They used some pretty underhanded tactics - like kidnapping the foreign general manager in his office with a literal mob of "angry" workers blockading the door unless he agreed to changes. Other times, the Chinese partner just never paid profits back to the foreign partner and dared them to go to court - and the courts sided with the Chinese partners. Corruption writ large.
Now, I have no idea if Chinese courts and business practices have gotten better since the 1990s. But I know that if I was BYD, the large Chinese automaker with EVs of its own, I would do things to throw sand into the gears of Tesla motors. Like work connections to make sure there is a car parked in each and every one of Tesla's Superchargers. All the time. And good luck appealing to the local authorities to help you with that problem.
Also, while Elon is being Elon and making sure his Tesla China general manager is actually following Tesla's corporate's instructions, the fact is that he has fired two general managers so far. Both of which no doubt have lost tons of face, while having connections in the rest of the Chinese business landscape. Elon appears to be charging into China with sharp elbows. I just wonder how the local businesses, employees, courts, and customers are going to react.
One final point - before Tesla entered the Europe mainland, Elon stated that he expected Germany to be a big market. And certainly, Tesla has invested a lot of money there in the form of stores and Superchargers. However, it seems that Germans like their homegrown car companies. They also don't like EVs in general. Anyways, I think Tesla has been surprised by the tepid reception they have received in Germany so far.
Ever since China opened up to foreign investment in the 1990s, people and companies have been trying to cash in on China's economic renaissance. I once read a book about what happened to a well intentioned investment bank that sunk almost a $1B into various investments in China. They all ended up going south - not because the underlying business was bad, but because the Chinese "partners" arranged things to essentially strip out the business value away from the foreign investors. They used some pretty underhanded tactics - like kidnapping the foreign general manager in his office with a literal mob of "angry" workers blockading the door unless he agreed to changes. Other times, the Chinese partner just never paid profits back to the foreign partner and dared them to go to court - and the courts sided with the Chinese partners. Corruption writ large.
Now, I have no idea if Chinese courts and business practices have gotten better since the 1990s. But I know that if I was BYD, the large Chinese automaker with EVs of its own, I would do things to throw sand into the gears of Tesla motors. Like work connections to make sure there is a car parked in each and every one of Tesla's Superchargers. All the time. And good luck appealing to the local authorities to help you with that problem.
Also, while Elon is being Elon and making sure his Tesla China general manager is actually following Tesla's corporate's instructions, the fact is that he has fired two general managers so far. Both of which no doubt have lost tons of face, while having connections in the rest of the Chinese business landscape. Elon appears to be charging into China with sharp elbows. I just wonder how the local businesses, employees, courts, and customers are going to react.
One final point - before Tesla entered the Europe mainland, Elon stated that he expected Germany to be a big market. And certainly, Tesla has invested a lot of money there in the form of stores and Superchargers. However, it seems that Germans like their homegrown car companies. They also don't like EVs in general. Anyways, I think Tesla has been surprised by the tepid reception they have received in Germany so far.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
If China was this bad it would have no foreign investment.
Would it not be more lucrative to take over Mercedes or Audi's business?
The Chinese courts have already ruled in favor of Tesla over a Chinese company/internet domain name squatter in one important matter, the trademark rights to the word "Tesla" and teslamotors.com .
Tesla already has a deal to install 400 chargers at China Unicom stores, the second largest telecom company in China.
Getting iced is not a problem exclusive to China.
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