Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

[Raffy.Roma]

I would like to inform all TMC Members and guests that in 2 weeks a new Course on Climate Change will start on Coursera:

Climate Change in Four Dimensions

Coursera.org

As it's very well known courses on Coursera are for free.

 

[Zapped]

You are right David. Problem is that the matter of CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is so serious both for the Climate Change/Global Warming issue and the Ocean Acidification issue to justify such costs.
As I said in my previous posts in 2050 the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere will be, in the best case and without removing CO2 from the atmosphere, 450 ppm but could also reach 550 ppm. Such values, also in the best case, are not healthy for mankind IMO. So I think that it's worth to spend money not only to reduce CO2 emissions but also to remove CO2 from the atmosphere.

Couldn't we just stop de-forestation and start to re-rebuild the rain forests that we destroyed ?
Deforestation: Facts, Causes Effects | LiveScience
Deforestation of the Amazon: Facts

What's the opinion of burning more fossil fuel with the vast amount of gas now available through Fracking.

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Check out this Stanford University discussion on Solar Thermal Power.

Very interesting presentation at 42:30 about how little it would take to power the planet.
At 53:15 in the Q&A very practical and eye opening response on how to integrate of existing Fossil fueled power stations and Hydro power.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

@Zapped

Of course stopping de-forestation, re-building rain forests and reducing CO2 emissions would help and we have to do these things for sure. Problem is that we can do all the possible efforts that we want but CO2 concentration in the atmosphere will always continue to increase and in 2050 best situation will be a CO2 concentration of 450 ppm. Also in this case we will have severe problems concerning the Climate Change/Global Warming issue and Ocean Acidification issue.
IMO mankind is forced to parallel CO2 emissions reduction to efforts to remove CO2 from the atmosphere.

 

[Kaivball]

This entire religion of AGW is based on flawed and incorrect computer models.

Yet, the disciples follow it blindly.



Global warming 'pause' may last for 20 more years and Arctic sea ice has already started to recover | Mail Online

 

[Kaivball]

The one sure Quadrant Online

 

[Raffy.Roma]

@Kaivball

Global warming "pause" may last even more than 20 years. To this concern see post #822. As it is stated in post #822 problem is that this "pause" has a physical explanation in the fact that the heat is absorbed by oceans causing ocean warming. And we know that ocean warming causes hurricanes.
I would like to add that IMO Arctic sea ice is not recovering. I am going to search the documents concerning this matter for you.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Please check out this article concerning Arctic sea ice:

Climate Graphics by Skeptical Science: Arctic Sea Ice Escalator

 

[Doug_G]

This entire religion of AGW is based on flawed and incorrect computer models.

No it isn't. It's based on basic physics. It's also based on measurements of the real world. The computer models are mainly an attempt to determine its impact.

Hypothesis + Data = Scientific Theory

Wild Speculation = AGW Denial = Religion

Doug

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

And with Kaivball’s seemingly inevitable return, and to pile on onto what Doug_G and Raffy has already written above – why not yet again sum up a little context for anyone new to this thread:

Starting at post #24 here:

Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion - Page 3

…this thread is to a pretty large extent one big back and forth between Kaivball and the rest of us (almost) in this thread. Argument for argument TMC members have debunked everything Kaivball has posted to this date. But as you can see she (?) is still ‘going strong’.

To Kaivball’s credit though, this has actually forced me to learn all the basics about Man-Made Climate Change. I now understand basically what it is that is happening. And it is mostly thanks to other members on TMC directing me at these seven (or eight) online resources:


A Climate Minute - The Greenhouse Effect - YouTube

Global Warming and Climate Change skepticism examined and what the science really says | skepticalscience.com

More specifically this list:

Arguments from Global Warming Skeptics and what the science really says | skepticalscience.com

… which “is a summary of global warming and climate change myths, sorted by recent popularity vs what science says. Click the response for a more detailed response. You can also view them sorted by taxonomy, by popularity, in a print-friendly version, withshort URLs or with fixed numbers you can use for permanent references.”

Where is global warming going? | www.skepticalscience.com

350 Science | 350.org

:: Sea-level Rise :: CSIRO ACECRC :: (scroll down to the second half of the page)

Global Warming's Terrifying New Math | Politics News | Rolling Stone

The Movie - 350


I also understand why the FUD[SUP]1[/SUP]-machine (figuratively speaking) previously actually at times through various media outlets ‘succeeded’ by ‘instilling hope’ in me that maybe Man Made Climate Change perhaps wasn’t happening at the rate I at the other times thought it was. Basically it was because I didn’t know that only 2.3% of Man Made Global Warming ends up in the atmosphere.

But now I know that the bulk of it – 93.4% ends up in the ocean. See the fourth link above.


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The link provided by Raffy in post #927 above on this page completely debunks Kaivball’s and Mail Online’s utterly ERRONEOUS AND LUDICROUS statement that the Arctic sea ice has “started to recover”. And the following two links completely and utterly debunks the just as ERRONEOUS AND LUDICROUS statement of a “global warming ‘pause’”:

What has global warming done since 1998? | skepticalscience.com

We haven't hit the global warming pause button | Dana Nuccitelli | Environment | theguardian.com



[SUP]1[/SUP]FUD=Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

 

[Zapped]

I told myself I wasn't going to follow this thread anymore.
... but.. the discuss is addictive and the many references can have one ( or maybe just me ) flip flop from one side to the other.

I believe there are scientists on both side of the fence, and I'm sure TMC members also. (Kaivball is just one reason this thread is ongoing and intriguing.. thanks )
As a newbie my perception is that "Man Made" Global Warming is like a religion with believers, non-believers, atheists and agnostics and where the scientists are the Gods.

I might be considered an Atheist on this subject and keep an open mind. What can I do ? I bought a TESLA. Hope that helps in some small way.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

…/ I believe there are scientists on both side of the fence /…

That’s why this list:

Arguments from Global Warming Skeptics and what the science really says | skepticalscience.com

…is so useful!


That is myth #4 on that list!

Is there a scientific consensus on global warming? | skepticalscience.com


And according to the science:

97% of climate experts agree humans are causing global warming.

Go see for yourself!

It is really excellent and was referenced by Elon in some tweets around the time when he had his nasal surgery around 05-25-2013:

(There’s an article with some backstory here:

Out From Under Washington's Thumb, Tesla CEO Musk Dips A Toe In Political Waters - Forbes)


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…/ As a newbie my perception is that "Man Made" Global Warming is like a religion with believers, non-believers, atheists and agnostics and where the scientists are the Gods.

I might be considered an Atheist on this subject and keep an open mind. /…

…and religion is a bad analogy when it comes to Man Made Global Warming. And here is why:

There is no evidence in support of any religion. That may seem controversial to a national in a country where the head of state takes the oath of office with her/his hand on a Bible and ends every single speech with ”…God bless the United States”. But even so, that does not change this fact…


BUT there is evidence for Man Made Climate Change:


– The CO2-level in both the atmosphere and in the ocean is rising.

350 Science | 350.org

Ocean acidification: global warming's evil twin | skepticalscience.com


– The global average temperature is rising. Both in the atmosphere and in the ocean.

What has global warming done since 1998? | skepticalscience.com

We haven't hit the global warming pause button | Dana Nuccitelli | Environment | theguardian.com


– And, the sea-level is rising.

:: Sea-level Rise :: CSIRO ACECRC :: (scroll down to the second half of the page)


THEREFORE:

This is not about belief. There is scientific evidence. And because of that evidence 97% of climate scientists agree humans are causing global warming.

Is there a scientific consensus on global warming? | skepticalscience.com



Full disclosure with regards to religion: I’m an atheist.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

As a newbie my perception is that "Man Made" Global Warming is like a religion with believers, non-believers, atheists and agnostics and where the scientists are the Gods.

I might be considered an Atheist on this subject and keep an open mind. What can I do ? I bought a TESLA. Hope that helps in some small way.

For evidences concerning the matter of man-made Global Warming please see posts #572 and #575 of this thread.
You are doing good with your TESLA (meaning any EV of course) to help, if you had a solar power system on your house even better.

 

[tigerade]

As a newbie my perception is that "Man Made" Global Warming is like a religion with believers, non-believers, atheists and agnostics and where the scientists are the Gods.

I might be considered an Atheist on this subject and keep an open mind. What can I do ? I bought a TESLA. Hope that helps in some small way.

Lawrence Krauss on Science vs. Religion - YouTube

and if you're still not getting it...

 

[tigerade]

Arctic Sea Ice loss video - updated to year 2013

Arctic Sea Ice Minimum Volumes 1979-2013 - YouTube

Please notice that there are some years where the volume of sea ice increases over the past year. Climate deceivers will seize on this and say "The Arctic ice is increasing!". It's not about a year over year change. It's about the long term trend.

 

[montgom626]

Icebreaker in Antarctica can't penetrate ice 12/27/2014

A Chinese icebreaker boat trying to eat through a dense ice block in Antarctica to rescue 74 people trapped on a ship since Christmas Day has had to halt efforts because the ice is too thick.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

@montgom626

Arctic and Anctartica sea ice have different behaviours. To this concern please check out this article:

Is Antarctica losing or gaining ice?

where it can be seen that Anctartica sea ice has a seasonal behaviour. Then I would like to point out this paragraph took from the above mentioned article:

Essentially Arctic sea ice is more important for the earth's energy balance because when it increasingly melts, more sunlight is absorbed by the oceans whereas Antarctic sea ice normally melts each summer leaving the earth's energy balance largely unchanged.

 

[tigerade]

A Chinese icebreaker boat trying to eat through a dense ice block in Antarctica to rescue 74 people trapped on a ship since Christmas Day has had to halt efforts because the ice is too thick.

And what does that have to do with climate change/global warming? There is no study that I'm aware of that says that Antarctica doesn't still have a lot of sea ice.

 

[Doug_G]

A Chinese icebreaker boat trying to eat through a dense ice block in Antarctica to rescue 74 people trapped on a ship since Christmas Day has had to halt efforts because the ice is too thick.

Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

This is only slightly newsworthy because of the stranded passenger ship. It is not that unusual for icebreakers to get stuck.

 

[Zapped]

So what's the Climate Scientist's consensus on the more burning more fossil fuels from Fracking ?
I would assume they ( IPCC ?? ) would express some solutions to the Global Warming crisis.

 

[tigerade]

So what's the Climate Scientist's consensus on the more burning more fossil fuels from Fracking ?
I would assume they ( IPCC ?? ) would express some solutions to the Global Warming crisis.

I have no idea what you are trying to ask here.