Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

[Raffy.Roma]

@Zapped

Problem is that CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is 400 ppm today (100 ppm more than ever in the last million years) and is increasing at a rate of 3 ppm/year. Of course first thing to do would be to decrease CO2 emissions and Countries all over the world are doing efforts to this purpose (also China). Unluckily any efforts at international level to get a target concerning CO2 emissions valid worldwide has always been impossible to achieve till now for various reasons. Hope that President Obama in 2015 will manage to cohordinate Countries all over the world to get a precise target valid worldwide concerning CO2 emissions.
But we should realize that even in the best case that Countries all over the world will manage to reduce CO2 emissions in 2050 CO2 concentration in the atmosphere will be 450 ppm according to my studies.

 

[Zapped]

I have no idea what you are trying to ask here.

Seems this vast new source of fossil fuel from Fracking should be a concerned to climate scientists.
Perhaps I incorrectly assumed ( or am just unaware ) that more attention would focus on preventing new sources of CO2 emissions by climate scientists. ( but maybe that's not their job )
Global CO2 Emissions from Fossil-Fuel Burning Rise into High-Risk Zone: Scientific American

On a positive note, with all the attention on Climate Change, it would seem to be a good opportunity for climate scientists to promote the use of large scale renewable energy such solar thermal power plants which according the Stanford University presentation could meet of the worlds electrical demand. (and of course there are others )

It just seems like too much energy and money is being spent on studying and debating the issue. Let get on with promoting / implementing solutions.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

I told myself I wasn't going to follow this thread anymore.
... but.. the discuss is addictive /…/ What can I do ? I bought a TESLA. Hope that helps in some small way.

I’m no expert, so I’m sure you can get a better answer. But as I understand it we must get the CO2-concentration in the atmosphere down. It’s ~400 parts per million (ppm) today, and according to the best scientists out there we have to get back below at least 350 ppm as soon as possible.

350 Science | 350.org

And I suppose cutting methane emissions will help as well.

Sure, being the best example/role model one can be by trying to minimize your own CO2 footprint in the most effective ways is of course a good thing. And it can probably help you feel better since you're actively doing stuff.

But like I said, I’m no prominent expert in this field. So I don’t know what will get the biggest effect out of the following:

– Make your house more energy efficient; better isolation, better isolated windows, solar panels.

– Cut down your travels as much as possible. Especially air travel.

– Eat less animal protein. And chicken/poultry and game are better than beef. Try and buy locally produced and organic food.

– Try and minimize hot water consumption.

– Cut down on consumption. And when you do buy stuff, then buy quality. Focus on ergonomics and lifespan. Don’t buy stuff that isn’t necessary.

BUT, IMO the most important thing is that we must spread the knowledge about Man Made Global Warming. We have to get grassroots pressure up to and above 50% of each electorate so that we can get politicians in place who actually have a clue and consequently do give a $#!¥!

So if you have the time: Get involved and get organized. I’m going to as soon as I can plow through an unfortunate and particularly unpleasing pile of work I for various reasons have to prioritize for a few days. Find an environmental organization. 350.org seems like a good one. Perhaps even better is to get into politics yourself. You don’t have to pursue elected office. Being a political activist is enough.

It’s my experience that spending some time with people who are as passionate as yourself, and who also ‘get it’, and doing some worth while work together, can do wonders for boosting ones morale.

And continue learning, and spread and share what you know with family and friends.


- - - Updated - - -

Seems this vast new source of fossil fuel from Fracking should be a concerned to climate scientists. /…

Yeah! Fracking for fossil gas (what the fossil fuel industry euphemistically touts as ‘natural’ gas) is not a good idea. Again, I’m no expert, but why not watch:

GasLand (2010) - IMDb

Gasland Part II (2013) - IMDb

I haven’t seen all of Gasland Part II, but it’s next on my list. And thankfully nobody has been enough 'mentally and intellectually challenged’ yet to allow anyone to start to frack on the Scandinavian Peninsula…

There are also threads about Gasland, and Gasland II on TMC:

Gasland The Dark side of Natural Gas

Gasland II


- - - Updated - - -

…/ Perhaps I incorrectly assumed ( or am just unaware ) that more attention would focus on preventing new sources of CO2 emissions by climate scientists. ( but maybe that's not their job ) /…

It’s my understanding many of them do.

As I understand it we have one who is also a Tesla owner in this tread – William Calvin (see for example #831 in this thread):

Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion - Page 84


James Hansen is another:

James Hansen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Raffy.Roma]

I would like to invite all TMC Members posting in this thread to report, as much as it is possible of course. only scientific and technical arguments and data because it's my opinion that posts focused on political matters don't give contribution to the Climate Change/Global Warming discussion.

The same.

 

[dhrivnak]

Seems this vast new source of fossil fuel from Fracking should be a concerned to climate scientists.

I believe Fracking can be the lesser of evils as the CO2 from natrual gas is about half of that of buring coal. In the USA coal use has dropped dramatically from 52% of all electricity in 2008 to 37% in 2012. Natural gas substution is most of that decline. But to me the real cool thing is wind and solar have gone from less than 1% of the electric mix to 5%. That is a huge growth and it appears that growth will continue.

I started a poll a little earlier Driving on Sunshine and over half of the Tesla owners charge their car with solar and another 20% are planning to get solar. So that is taking cars off the road. I beleive we are part of a sustainable and clean future. We are just at the start of the movement but we are showing people with our actions and $$$ that the environment is important and we are willing to do something about it.

 

[JRP3]

Yes NG produces less CO2 than coal, so in that sense it's better, but, there is also a huge increase in methane emissions from NG extraction, which is bad. Plus all the other issues with fracking operations. LFTR thorium reactors seem like a very promising technology for zero emissions power generation that would not fluctuate the way wind and solar do. http://energyfromthorium.com/

 

[jerry33]

I believe Fracking can be the lesser of evils

As long as you don't count in water pollution and destabilization of the bedrock (think earthquakes in areas where there haven't been earthquakes). France actually has the right idea, they made a law against fracking.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

I believe Fracking can be the lesser of evils /…

…/ the gas industry continues to benefit from lax oversight and several exemptions from existing public health protections, such as the Safe Drinking Water Act and parts of the Clean Water Act that apply to other fossil fuel extraction industries. Recent attempts by federal agencies and lawmakers to improve oversight of gas operations have been met with strong resistance from the gas industry and its alliance of front groups and defenders in the media. /…

Source: Fracking the Future - How Unconventional Gas Threatens our Water, Health and Climate

…/ fracturing fluids are /…/ commonly known to contain chemicals linked to cancer, organ damage, nervous system disorders and birth defects,[8] [My bold] /…/ Fracturing fluids, or ‘fracking fluids,’ a mixture of millions of gallons (at times as low as 2 million[11] and as high as 7.8 million[12]) of water, sand and chemicals, are injected into the well at extremely high pressure. /…/

“even if you adopt industry’s definition of hydraulic fracturing (thus excluding incidents from drilling damage, failed well casings, spills, erosion and sedimentation, or tanker accidents), there is now evidence…that the isolated process of hydraulic fracturing has been responsible for water contamination.”[19] /…

Source: Fracking the Future - The Dangers of Gas Drilling

Some additional info:

Fracking the Future - The Myth that Gas is "Clean Energy"

Fracking the Future - Gas Politics Are Polluted


- - - Updated - - -

Paraphrasing: Because fracking explicitly is exempt from the Safe Drinking Water Act the fossil gas industry DOES NOT need to tell the public what chemicals they are using !!!

Source: Gasland Part II (2013) - IMDb at ~ the 13 minute mark.

And we're talking about "a mixture of millions of gallons (at times as low as 2 million and as high as 7.8 million) of water, sand and chemicals" here – See the second blue quote above.

 

[dhrivnak]

ALL energy sources have drawbacks and I agree natural gas is far from perfect, but I also believe it to be cleaner than coal or oil. We need something to bridge the gap until we build enough wind farms and solar panels. The USA would need to install nearly 1 billion solar panels to replace natural gas. It will happen but not in the next few years unless you are financing a secret super plant to increase worldwide production nearly 100 fold.

 

[Dave EV]

The USA would need to install nearly 1 billion solar panels to replace natural gas. It will happen but not in the next few years unless you are financing a secret super plant to increase worldwide production nearly 100 fold.

That's quite a bit of solar - we're going to need a good amount of storage to go with it. Perhaps we can use the 90 kW limited Model S packs? Each one of those could probably serve as grid storage for half a dozen houses.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

@drees

Batteries are widely used nowadays to store energy coming from solar power systems but I very much doubt that adding batteries to existing solar power systems can work out the energy need of the Earth. As David said actually you need billions of solar panels all over the world to work out the needed energy demand.

 

[Zapped]

Yes NG produces less CO2 than coal, so in that sense it's better, but, there is also a huge increase in methane emissions from NG extraction, which is bad. Plus all the other issues with fracking operations. LFTR thorium reactors seem like a very promising technology for zero emissions power generation that would not fluctuate the way wind and solar do. http://energyfromthorium.com/

Too bad these technologies aren't being implemented. Interestingly the Solar Thermal Power plants in Ivanpah and Nevada also uses liquid salt to have the plant run well beyond sun down.
Nevada's Molten Salt Power Plant
Ivanpah Power Plant

One has to congratulate the private individuals that have installed solar power panels. Hopefully this is the catalyst that will get the utility companies to move to clean renewable energy also and satisfy the goals of the climate change issue at the same time.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Yes NG produces less CO2 than coal, so in that sense it's better, but, there is also a huge increase in methane emissions from NG extraction, which is bad. Plus all the other issues with fracking operations. LFTR thorium reactors seem like a very promising technology for zero emissions power generation that would not fluctuate the way wind and solar do. http://energyfromthorium.com/

All true, but remember to make apples-to-apples comparisons of fossil fuels. Coal does not magically appear next to power plants; a lot of energy is used mining, processing, and transporting it, and there is some amount of coal-seam gas that gets released during mining. All in all, if the (fracked) gas displaces coal or oil, it's reducing GHG emissions (on a co2 equivalent basis).

The OP raises a fair point though: to the extent that cheap NG is increasing demand for energy, that increase raises emissions. All the more reason to impose a substantial, revenue neutral carbon tax.

 

[Dave EV]

Batteries are widely used nowadays to store energy coming from solar power systems but I very much doubt that adding batteries to existing solar power systems can work out the energy need of the Earth.

Really? I'm not aware of any battery storage being widely used anywhere. It's only recently starting to get used in Germany. Solar City is just beginning to roll out their peak-shaving battery storage product for businesses. I still can't buy an affordable off-the-shelf battery storage system that will let me store excess solar energy for use later. But we definitely need storage - and batteries are one way to get it. What else do you propose?

Too bad these technologies aren't being implemented. Interestingly the Solar Thermal Power plants in Ivanpah and Nevada also uses liquid salt to have the plant run well beyond sun down.

Ivanpah does not have any significant storage capacity despite being a solar thermal plant. It doesn't use liquid salt as far as I'm aware, either, only water.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

@drees

Also in Italy battery storage is used when installing a new solar power system. But the main point is, and I agree with you on this matter, that battery storage is needed for any solar power system.
Problem is that the amount of renewable energy, like solar energy, needed to replace fossil fuels is huge and we are far away from the point of getting rid of fossil fuels.

- - - Updated - - -

To this concern I would like to report this article:

Renewable Energy | Institute for Energy Research

According to this article about 9 percent of all energy consumed in the United States in 2012 was from renewable sources.

 

[Dave EV]

Also in Italy battery storage is used when installing a new solar power system. But the main point is, and I agree with you on this matter, that battery storage is needed for any solar power system.

Have any details on that system? For most of the USA, being able to shift generation just a couple hours after sun-down would make a big difference in grid demand profile.

 

[RichardC]

...
But like I said, I’m no prominent expert in this field. So I don’t know what will get the biggest effect out of the following:

– Make your house more energy efficient; better isolation, better isolated windows, solar panels.

– Cut down your travels as much as possible. Especially air travel.

– Eat less animal protein. And chicken/poultry and game are better than beef. Try and buy locally produced and organic food.

– Try and minimize hot water consumption.

– Cut down on consumption. And when you do buy stuff, then buy quality. Focus on ergonomics and lifespan. Don’t buy stuff that isn’t necessary.

BUT, IMO the most important thing is that we must spread the knowledge about Man Made Global Warming. We have to get grassroots pressure up to and above 50% of each electorate so that we can get politicians in place who actually have a clue and consequently do give a $#!¥!

So if you have the time: Get involved and get organized. I’m going to as soon as I can plow through an unfortunate and particularly unpleasing pile of work I for various reasons have to prioritize for a few days. Find an environmental organization. 350.org seems like a good one. Perhaps even better is to get into politics yourself. You don’t have to pursue elected office. Being a political activist is enough. ...

Great list, I would add the following suggestions:

1. Probably unnecessary for this Forum, drive a Telsa, give demo rides to persuade others that pollution free can also be better.
2. Replace coal/oil/gas heating with a high efficiency cold weather heat pump or a geothermal system.
3. Purchase renewable energy (where available) from suppliers such as Bullfrog Power, in Canada.
4. Invest in renewable energy cooperatives to build out renewable energy capacity.
5. Lobby your politicians at all levels to impose a significant and steadily increasing pollution levy on all carbon emissions.

With respect to the latter point, this simple change, with 100% of the resulting revenues being returned to the populace, will solve the problem within a generation if universally adopted. Since we in the West have already emitted more than our fair share of CO2 we should take the lead!

See: http://citizensclimatelobby.org/

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Have any details on that system? For most of the USA, being able to shift generation just a couple hours after sun-down would make a big difference in grid demand profile.

There is a thread on TMC concerning this matter:

Tesla branded solar power storage unit

Then in the USA you are lucky because you have Tesla power storage. In fact you have SolarCity. Hope that we will have Tesla power storage in Europe soon.

 

[Dave EV]

There is a thread on TMC concerning this matter:

Tesla branded solar power storage unit

I am familiar with that unit. I am asking about the ones you say are installed there in Italy.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

I am familiar with that unit. I am asking about the ones you say are installed there in Italy.

I knew it from the advertisment. I don't know exactly the name.