Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

[tigerade]

A nice little comic....

xkcd: Global warming



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@ tigerade

Ever thought about going into politics?

If I did anything with politics I would do the same thing I'm doing now, which is to advance science and reason. I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to American politics, but that stance would not get very far in the current political climate.

I think the changes need in America are cultural, not political. True that the political issues are severe, but if you look at the roots of the problem, it's cultural. Instead of asking "Why are states like Texas teaching Creationism in schools?", which is a perfectly valid question, instead ask "Why do 40-something percent of Americans believe in Creationism in the first place?". When you ask that question, you realize that the political problem is being caused by the cultural one. For climate change, instead of asking "Why does half of Congress say that climate change is a hoax?", instead ask "why does 23% of the electorate believe that climate change is a hoax?". Asking that question is a far better one, I think. You could also ask why corporations and media outlets freely mislead the public on science issues. Once again, a cultural problem that I seek to fix.

 

[tigerade]

It's nice to see a U.S. Senator that actually gets it, and it certainly appears that Sen. Whitehouse does. I wish we had more in elected office that had a solid grasp of the science:

Sen. Whitehouse: I will not ignore effects of climate change - YouTube

 

[ggies07]

It's nice to see a U.S. Senator that actually gets it, and it certainly appears that Sen. Whitehouse does. I wish we had more in elected office that had a solid grasp of the science:

Sen. Whitehouse: I will not ignore effects of climate change - YouTube

That was amazing. I loved his enthusiasm! Thanks for sharing.

 

[ggies07]

Everyone needs to read the article in the latest edition of Rolling Stone titled: "How the US exports global warming."

I had no idea about petcoke. Crazy. I knew with more fracking we would be exporting more and the price of gasoline will go up, but I didnt realize the administration was so heavily involved.

 

[EchoDelta]

A nice little comic....

xkcd: Global warming

View attachment 42208

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If I did anything with politics I would do the same thing I'm doing now, which is to advance science and reason. I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to American politics, but that stance would not get very far in the current political climate.

I think the changes need in America are cultural, not political. True that the political issues are severe, but if you look at the roots of the problem, it's cultural. Instead of asking "Why are states like Texas teaching Creationism in schools?", which is a perfectly valid question, instead ask "Why do 40-something percent of Americans believe in Creationism in the first place?". When you ask that question, you realize that the political problem is being caused by the cultural one. For climate change, instead of asking "Why does half of Congress say that climate change is a hoax?", instead ask "why does 23% of the electorate believe that climate change is a hoax?". Asking that question is a far better one, I think. You could also ask why corporations and media outlets freely mislead the public on science issues. Once again, a cultural problem that I seek to fix.

Greetings from Geneva. From my experience with nation states, it goes one step further. "Culture" - Average beliefs and tolerances are vastly shaped by media and social imagery put forward by the political apparatus. Media and the political apparatus are strongly shaped by corporate/industrial and family feuds.

Demand generation and marketing **works**. And exceedingly well. Just compare the marketing spend and strategies of competing schools of thought and it will be a strong predictor of how well they fare in the populations.

The scary thing is, it doesn't take some vast or too smart conspiracy to push the populace around, just a few years of consistent messages that are anything better than incompetently crafted can settle beliefs and norms of subsets of the population (and it is always subsets- divide and conquer is a common strategy). The road to 2+2=5 is shorter, easier and better documented than most would imagine.

Creationism is taught in schools because that's what the adults want. The adults want it because that's what they are taught to believe will make them "them" and not "others".

Recommend reading Lakoff to see how politics uses and advertises with mental/linguistic frames as wedges that are then used for other messages.

Climate change is a message that is hard to grasp emotionally (leading to 7 stages of grief etc) and that challenges the existing system without proposing an out or another system; and its marketing is led by a science-centric community which despite all evidence believe they should continue to be the "voice" of the matter (truth is a nice to have in great marketing). Many profit greatly from the current system. Nation states are by design the apparatus that protects power structures- in our times, that of corporations that profit- giving them different rule of accountability . It has all the characteristics of a message that ain't gonna make it in time.

That's why it may be a better strategy to bring global warming messaging in the youth groups of churches attended by conservative political leaders than to go and rally with signs and banners in front of the capitol. Or to design a bacteria that lodges in coal that deposits secretions that greatly reduce burning efficiency or clogs burners (which nation states would promptly label as terrorist activity) Or to establish sustainable regions within failed states. Or or or etc etc.

 

[tigerade]

Prince Charles baffled by climate change denial, calls them the "headless chicken brigade" :biggrin:

Prince Charles slams climate-change deniers - Yahoo News

 

[ggies07]

Part of the Rolling Stone article I was talking talks about some of this:

Carbon Briefing: Who killed the EU’s transport fuel standards? | Carbon Brief

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Prince Charles baffled by climate change denial, calls them the "headless chicken brigade" :biggrin: /...

It is a becoming metaphor.

Unfortunately in this case though, it seems too easy for the headless chicken brigade to point and shout “Squirrel!” by …pointing out the obviously undemocratic and anachronistic the messenger in this case literally embodies, since he titles himself ‘Prince’ (!)… (Apropos the need for different cultural reforms… A reform that of course wouldn’t be exclusively cultural but very much political as well, since everything is political.)

 

[tigerade]

Roll up your sleeves, here comes another fight:

Business groups form multi-million dollar campaign to fight Obamas climate plan

The coalition--which consists of 78 organizations, including the American Farm Bureau Federation as well as trade associations from the oil refining and coal industries --is prepared to spend significant money on the campaign. NAM spokesman Jamie Hennigan wrote in an e-mail that in response the the administration's greenhouse gas "regulatory agenda and the threat is poses to the availability of affordable and reliable energy for American families and businesses, members of the coalition collectively plan to dedicate millions of dollars towards this issue."
In a news release, the group —said it will present “a unified strategy and message” in order to combat upcoming greenhouse gas regulations.
“To remain competitive in a global economy, manufacturers need an ‘all-of-the-above’ energy strategy to ensure they have access to affordable and reliable energy,” said NAM president and chief executive Jay Timmons. “Unfortunately, this administration seems to believe that the only way to reduce GHG emissions is to eliminate fossil fuels from our economy. Manufacturers believe we can use these and other fuels while reducing our emissions.”

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

The bad news for California continues:

BBC News - Drought-hit California unable to supply state water

 

[Robert.Boston]

The only incremental source for water is desalination, which ironically uses a lot of energy, which all (incrementally) comes from fossil fuels, which increases CO2, which disrupts the climate. Rinse and repeat.

 

[RichardC]

The only incremental source for water is desalination, which ironically uses a lot of energy, which all (incrementally) comes from fossil fuels, which increases CO2, which disrupts the climate. Rinse and repeat.

Similar results where carbon emissions result in increased temperatures which require increased air conditioning which requires increased electricity which results in further fossil fuel emissions!

 

[Dave EV]

The only incremental source for water is desalination, which ironically uses a lot of energy, which all (incrementally) comes from fossil fuels, which increases CO2, which disrupts the climate. Rinse and repeat.

I wonder how flexible desal plants are in their power draw - can they be used to help balance the grid by providing load shedding services allowing more wind/solar to be put onto the grid more economically than it would cost to add grid storage or other grid stabilization technologies?

Only one desalination project in the USA that I'm aware of right now:

Carlsbad Desalination Project | Desalination Plant


Will provide about 50 million gallons per day when operational at the end of next year. Timing is pretty good considering current drought conditions, though it'd be nice if it were operational already!

 

[Robert.Boston]

Yes, desal can definitely run at arbitrary levels, so it is a very good way to balance intermittent renewables on the grid. In effect you'd be storing power as fresh water. The challenge is that whether you're willing to under-utilize the desal gear.

There's quite a lot of desal outside the US, but I think you're right, the Carlsbad facility is the only large-scale modern (reverse osmosis) plant in the US.

 

[RichardC]

The following videos provide information on the impacts of the Canadian tar sands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwwVo3CEFAQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61X4IQqnmd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8m5PFuYRSI

 

[montgom626]

Another Ice Age? – TIME

Another Ice Age? - TIME

 

[tigerade]

Another Ice Age? - TIME

What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?

 

[montgom626]

Scientists have found other indications of global cooling.

What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?

In 1974, Time Magazine blamed the cold polar vortex on global cooling.
Scientists have found other indications of global cooling.

 

[ggies07]

The following videos provide information on the impacts of the Canadian tar sands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwwVo3CEFAQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61X4IQqnmd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8m5PFuYRSI

Thanks for the links. And if you and anybody else is free tonight, might one to check and see if one of these locations is near you and go be a supporter.

350.org Epic Response: 200+ Actions to Stop Keystone XL Tomorrow

 

[tigerade]

In 1974, Time Magazine blamed the cold polar vortex on global cooling.
Scientists have found other indications of global cooling.

Global cooling - Is global warming still happening?
Are we heading into a new Ice Age?
Does cold weather disprove global warming?