Cost of a Model 3 vs. ICE

[Brentt]

My wife had a similar anxiety.
Even after we picked it up she wouldnt drive it for the first two weeks. I finally
Had to make her drive it. That was four months, And ten thousand miles ago.
Now, she loves the car and you can’t get her out of it. I asked her what her hang up
Was about driving the car, and she said, she was afraid she wouldnt know how to put it
In and out of gear. That might sound a little crazy, but she hadn’t watched every YouTube
Video for the last two years like I had. The nearest showroom was also four hours away, and
She had never seen or even sat in a Tesla, mush less a Model3. So, spending 50K for
A car she had never sat in, or didnt know if she could drive, made her more than a little anxious.

 

[ewoodrick]

As I near the deliver of my M3 RWD Tesla, my wife is having a little anxiety. I have tried to assure her that over the life of the vehicle it would be a savings. But she asks, "why can't we just get a $20,000 car?" I was averaging some costs of the ICE versus the Tesla and while the initial cost is obviously higher, I think the five year cost is less. If I figure the cost of $20,000, plus gas ($3 per gallon), other maintenance, plus higher registration, extended warranties, etc. The cost of a $20,000 car over 5 years is roughly $42,000. Wheras, the cost of a $50,000 Tesla, plus $3,500 for tax title license, cost of elect, future registration, it is less than $40,000. So the difference is marginal, but I am obviously getting a much nicer car.

Am I missing anything?

You don't compare a RWD LR Model 3 against a $20,000 car, they aren't in the same category and you won't make up the price in gas and maintenance.
You can compare the 2018 Leaf, which can be gotten for $22,500 and then show how the Leaf will tend to be a lot cheaper in the long run.

You are really stretching when you add $20k on top of the cost of a $20k for operating cost. But an electric isn't free for life. You've got electricity and the same type warranties to purchase.

Not sure why you think that the registration is cheaper, in many states, we have to pay additional registration to offset road taxes.

 

[MXWing]

You know, we are the last people who should be creating FUD concerning any EV. The Bolt is nothing like the typical GM car. In fact, it is the tightest, quietest car I've driven in a long time -- not a single squeak, rub, tap, etc. anywhere in it. The suspension is tight and well controlled and the infotainment center is, in at least one aspect, far better than the current Tesla version (it NEVER forgets its place, even if you disconnect a USB stick and then reinsert it).

We drove a Bolt and a Model S together from Portland, Maine to Charlottetown, PEI. The range for the Bolt was insignificantly different from that of the Model S. The regen on the Bolt is stronger, with much better control of the degree of regen. The charging time for both cars were essentially the same -- CHAdeMO for the S and CCA for the Bolt. Both systems are equally available in most of the level 3 charging stations. I would drive a Bolt halfway across the U.S. with no more concern than with our Model S's.

We love our Teslas, and I'm certainly not saying that the Bolt is the equal of the Model 3 or any other Tesla Model, but then again, the Premier version is $32,000 in California after rebates, and the base model is $25k.. Lots of people could justify an EV that is in the cost range of a Camry intially, and as we know, the savings versus an ICE just continue to pile up the longer you drive an EV.

If we are trying to support the conversion of our transportation sector away from fossil fuels we just can't be making these condescending comments about EVs which are more affordable.

Nothing I have said was untruthful. Have a glass of water ready, I am about to drop the red pill on you.

It's a cute anecdote to say the Bolt kept up with the S during your tandem trip. The S dragged a cripple along and made the Bolt think it was "close". It would be like saying, I could keep up with Usain Bolt if he hopped on one leg in the 200 Meter.

Why would a Tesla mess with chademo charging at 50KW max when it could use its own supercharger network for over twice that?

Absolutely I would be concerned trying to get to New York from San Francisco in a Bolt vs a Tesla. In a Tesla, I just say go and it will map out the route including all supercharger stops to make that happen.

Can I do that in the Bolt? Nope? I better plan each stop myself, hope the chargers are working, hope I am registered to use them, hope I have the app working to use them, and hope I have the payment method to use them. That creates tons of concern that is non-existent in a Tesla.

Oh... and DC Fast Charging isnt standard on every Bolt. If you didn't know you needed to get it you have the worlds heaviest paperweight 100 miles one way.

Now lets talk about GM themselves...

GM LOSES $9,000-$12,000 for every Bolt they sell. This is why they are not mass producing them and not trying to sell them. It's not sustainable for GM. You really think GM cares about getting out of fossil fuels? They would rather happily sell Silverados and Corvettes for the next hundred years.

GM sells Bolts STRICTLY for compliance, to allow them sell more of their gas monsters. Of course to also mess with Tesla. Stockholm syndrome apologist only helps enable them to do this.

Think GM made the Bolt out of the kindness of their hearts or for caring about anyone? They would be happy if Tesla died tomorrow.

 

[harry]

Nothing I have said was untruthful. Have a glass of water ready, I am about to drop the red pill on you.

It's a cute anecdote to say the Bolt kept up with the S during your tandem trip. The S dragged a cripple along and made the Bolt think it was "close". It would be like saying, I could keep up with Usain Bolt if he hopped on one leg in the 200 Meter.

Why would a Tesla mess with chademo charging at 50KW max when it could use its own supercharger network for over twice that?

Absolutely I would be concerned trying to get to New York from San Francisco in a Bolt vs a Tesla. In a Tesla, I just say go and it will map out the route including all supercharger stops to make that happen.

Can I do that in the Bolt? Nope? I better plan each stop myself, hope the chargers are working, hope I am registered to use them, hope I have the app working to use them, and hope I have the payment method to use them. That creates tons of concern that is non-existent in a Tesla.

Oh... and DC Fast Charging isnt standard on every Bolt. If you didn't know you needed to get it you have the worlds heaviest paperweight 100 miles one way.

Whoa -- so much FUD, so little time...

First, most people agree that one of the Bolt's worst enemies is GM. LG Chem built a nice little car for them, and they would like to pretend it doesn't even exist.

However, let's look at the FUD now.

First, your lack of knowledge about charging networks throughout North America is surprising. There are no Superchargers beyond Bangor on the route to Canada. The Model S had only the same KW access as the Bolt. That is true throughout much of Canada. Believing that Superchargers are available to us all is just another elitist misconception. Certainly current CCS charging is not as fast as Superchargers, but that's irrelevant in our areas.

A comment on the magic route management of the Tesla which you describe. If you think that our Teslas are mapping out routes and charge stops through Canada you are in a dream world. Tesla knows nothing except Superchargers and destination chargers -- all of the other 50,000 plus chargers are invisible to it, and those are the ones you'll need up here.

You are once again incorrect concerning the fast charging option. In Canada it is standard on the Premier (not that it's relevant to anything I was saying.)

You talk as if the suggestion that it is possible to buy an affordable EV today is somehow an affront. I have spent six years doing presentations of our Model S's -- local press interviews, photo ops, car shows, etc. and one of the most frequent comments is "Yeah, they are great, but they'll never be affordable." If $35k EVs don't totally match up with $60k EVs, that should be no surprise, but implying that if someone can't afford the $60k EV they should just keep driving their ICE is foolish.

 

[ℬête Noire]

GM sells Bolts STRICTLY for compliance,

This isn't true. If it was true I couldn't have bought one. It's a market exploration and learning experience, not a full landing of a product. But it's more than just ZEV and fleet efficiency numbers product.

Barra has heard the future for a bit now (unlike Fiat-Chrysler and Ford, who were in flat out denial about the Model 3 until some time this year, and still don't have any grasp of things). Sure GM et al would like for Tesla to just go away, and EVs to not happen for another decade or ten, but GM really is trying to figure out how to build BEVs [and turn a profit doing it].

It is just that GM, like everyone else not-Tesla-and-not-Chinese-government-directed, is not in a position to do much about a shipping product at Tesla's level** today because they didn't truly believe 5 years ago that this is where Tesla would be. They didn't get how fast it was coming and they aren't used to moving this fast. Automobiles have been a slow, plodding, methodical tech advancement for several decades. Merely the idea of making cars smaller snuck up on the US manufacturers pushed them to the edge of collapse back in the 80's. Losing money per unit on smaller runs in the first few years of a brand new product line is actually somewhat expected, until they dial their manufacturing and design in and then are ready to ramp up production.

** The Chinese based stuff doesn't seem to really be up to Tesla quality but at least they are shipping in quality.

Oh... and DC Fast Charging isnt standard on every Bolt. If you didn't know you needed to get it you have the worlds heaviest paperweight 100 miles one way.

Pffffft, as far as I've been able to tell, for me the option itself would have been a $750 paperweight. Yes DCFast is better than L2 but from the technical numbers I was able to dig up on it the charge curve turns down really quickly, even from the 50kW cap, compared to Teslas. *shrug* I sure wouldn't want to do it regularly, anyway. Pricing in the State, at the precious few there are, is about 48c/kWh. I might as well be running premium in a 25mpg car.

At least the sales guy I dealt with from the dealership I bought at knew this and brought it up (that the DCFast was an optional item, not the true crappiness of it in practice locally). They had a number of them on the lot (I think 5 at the time, and moved a lot more). He said he was used to people coming in asking for the Bolt knowing more details than him but he'd at least been paying attention. The first, closer dealership we stopped at had a single Bolt on the property and the sales scrub didn't have a clue, he was asking me question about the car (and Teslas)...that's some real solid marketing support there. *sigh*

 

[MXWing]

Whoa -- so much FUD, so little time...

First, most people agree that one of the Bolt's worst enemies is GM. LG Chem built a nice little car for them, and they would like to pretend it doesn't even exist.

However, let's look at the FUD now.

First, your lack of knowledge about charging networks throughout North America is surprising. There are no Superchargers beyond Bangor on the route to Canada. The Model S had only the same KW access as the Bolt. That is true throughout much of Canada. Believing that Superchargers are available to us all is just another elitist misconception. Certainly current CCS charging is not as fast as Superchargers, but that's irrelevant in our areas.

A comment on the magic route management of the Tesla which you describe. If you think that our Teslas are mapping out routes and charge stops through Canada you are in a dream world. Tesla knows nothing except Superchargers and destination chargers -- all of the other 50,000 plus chargers are invisible to it, and those are the ones you'll need up here.

You are once again incorrect concerning the fast charging option. In Canada it is standard on the Premier (not that it's relevant to anything I was saying.)

You talk as if the suggestion that it is possible to buy an affordable EV today is somehow an affront. I have spent six years doing presentations of our Model S's -- local press interviews, photo ops, car shows, etc. and one of the most frequent comments is "Yeah, they are great, but they'll never be affordable." If $35k EVs don't totally match up with $60k EVs, that should be no surprise, but implying that if someone can't afford the $60k EV they should just keep driving their ICE is foolish.

As I explained, GM doesn’t want to support the Bolt because it never wanted to build it in the first place. It’s sold reason to exists is to sell more Corvettes and Silverado’s.

You swap between obscure routes of travel in Canada and “half way through the United States”.

Pick one.

Anything inside the United States, Tesla eats the Bolts lunch.

Canada I hope and expect would get more superchargers.

The Model 3 essentially only exist in meaningful numbers in the United States so that is my reference point. It’s not being elitist but focusing on the 99 percent.

The 50,000 others chargers or whatever they are - I still have to find them, register for them and pay for them - and they are not homogenous infrastructure. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

Until a manufacturer is willing to go all in EV they shouldn’t be supported. I once was ignorant and thought an EV was as good as another in terms of making the world a better place. As I got more educated I found out Tesla did the right things for the right reasons. GM and the ilk did the “seemingly right thing” begrudgingly and would happily return to the pre Tesla days in a heartbeat.

I’m not supporting them. It helps that their cars are less functional to me and has no sex appeal.

Driving an ICE for a little bit longer to save up more or allow 3s to hit the second hand market etc is worth it to me.

If I got a Bolt right now, I’d just be agitated with it taking up a parking spot and have regret every time I saw a 3.

You also can’t say oh fast charging is standard on the Premier and talk about cheap prices on the LT.

Pick a side..

And the LT strips out safety features so you have to pay more if you want more protection.

Great company..!

 

[MXWing]

This isn't true. If it was true I couldn't have bought one. It's a market exploration and learning experience, not a full landing of a product. But it's more than just ZEV and fleet efficiency numbers product.

Barra has heard the future for a bit now (unlike Fiat-Chrysler and Ford, who were in flat out denial about the Model 3 until some time this year, and still don't have any grasp of things). Sure GM et al would like for Tesla to just go away, and EVs to not happen for another decade or ten, but GM really is trying to figure out how to build BEVs [and turn a profit doing it].

It is just that GM, like everyone else not-Tesla-and-not-Chinese-government-directed, is not in a position to do much about a shipping product at Tesla's level** today because they didn't truly believe 5 years ago that this is where Tesla would be. They didn't get how fast it was coming and they aren't used to moving this fast. Automobiles have been a slow, plodding, methodical tech advancement for several decades. Merely the idea of making cars smaller snuck up on the US manufacturers pushed them to the edge of collapse back in the 80's. Losing money per unit on smaller runs in the first few years of a brand new product line is actually somewhat expected, until they dial their manufacturing and design in and then are ready to ramp up production.

** The Chinese based stuff doesn't seem to really be up to Tesla quality but at least they are shipping in quality.



Pffffft, as far as I've been able to tell, for me the option itself would have been a $750 paperweight. It's DCFast is better than L2 but from the technical numbers I was able to dig up on it the charge curve turns down really quickly, even from the 50kW cap, compared to Teslas. *shrug* I sure wouldn't want to do it regularly, anyway. Pricing in the State, at the precious few there are, is about 48c/kWh. I might as well be running premium in a 25mpg car.

At least the sales guy I dealt with from the dealership I bought at knew this and brought it up. They had a number of them on the lot (I think 5 at the time, and moved a lot more). He said he was used to people coming in asking for the Bolt knowing more details than him but he'd at least been paying attention. The first, closer dealership we stopped at had a single Bolt on the property the sales scrub didn't have a clue and was asking me question about the car (and Teslas).

You essentially validated to me that even as a Bolt owner, you don't want to even deal with the Bolt's DCFast.

46KW rate essentially depends on your battery being near empty to get that throughput. Can we say RANGE ANXIETY?

This makes the Bolt no good for anything other than 110 mile range round trips. That makes it suitable for someone's secondary car, never someones primary.

I am against putting good money after bad.

 

[ℬête Noire]

There are no Superchargers beyond Bangor on the route to Canada.

Heading north of the 49th has meant a lot of long, L2 charged leaps of faith. However times are a-changing. Similar in the past huge gap between Southern Ontario and Calgary. It was pretty much all Sun Country Highway free L2 (a lot of them 80kW capable, though). But there's a number of SC in permitting in MB and now one in SK in permitting (to match with 3 in ND, to start filling that gap).

Careful summer driving could an LR from Bangor to the Amherst SC in construction (300mi). The SC in permitting at the border crossing will make it an easy jump in the LR but a real stretch in the SR (220mi).

 

[ℬête Noire]

You essentially validated to me that even as a Bolt owner, you don't want to even deal with the Bolt's DCFast.

How would you ever get I thought or suggested anything different? EDIT: Outside I'd be open to it maybe working in CA as I haven't really looked that hard at what it's like on the ground there as it became rather moot when I couldn't see even making it to the TX border without huge hassle.

This makes the Bolt no good for anything other than 110 mile range round trips. That makes it suitable for someone's secondary car, never someones primary.

I am against putting good money after bad.

BZZZZZZZZT.

In the more general, there's simply nothing wrong with the Bolt as a secondary car. That's hardly putting good money after bad.

Further, there are plenty of people for whom what you and I'd would call a secondary car is fine for their primary car. They very rarely, if ever, drive more than 200mi round trip (if they do travel they take some sort of public transport). It's outside our direct experience but there it is. I have friends and acquaintances like this. They just don't travel in any sense of the word, or if they do they hop a plane. *shrug*

You just need to make sure going in you understand this fully and that it's a true fit. You need a lot of introspection of how you live, of the regular and the irregular things you do.

 

[MXWing]

How would you ever get I thought or suggested anything different?


BZZZZZZZZT.

In the more general, there's simply nothing wrong with the Bolt as a secondary car. That's hardly putting good money after bad.

Further, there are plenty of people for whom what you and I'd would call a secondary car is fine for their primary car. They very rarely, if ever, drive more than 200mi round trip (if they do travel they take some sort of public transport). It's outside our direct experience but there it is. I have friends and acquaintances like this. They just don't travel in any sense of the word, or if they do they hop a plane. *shrug*

You just need to make sure going in you understand this fully and that it's a true fit. You need a lot of introspection of how you live, of the regular and the irregular things you do.

You are not taking the Bolt halfway across the United States as confidently as you would a Model S as asserted by @harry It would be impossible without DCFast.. and you still wouldn't do it even with DCFast.

Of course its fine that the Bolt can be a secondary car. Not everyone is in a position to want or need to own more than one car however. That makes the Model 3 levels of magnitudes more valuable than the Bolt.

Model 3 is going to be more expensive because the Bolt has a priced in lack of demand factor.

Value = What you get, not what you pay.

 

[sreams]

If you measure the value of a car based only on it's price and it's size, then get the Charger.

I find value in the driving experience, and in the freedom to travel almost anywhere with minimal cost. My wife and I are much more open to road trips now as a result. It actually changes the way you look at travel.

More specifically, we live in Sacramento and like to travel to San Francisco, Lake Tahoe, Yosemite, etc. The trip to San Francisco and back used to cost $50 in gas. Now it costs about $8 in electricity (and the car has enough range to do it without Supercharging). The car encourages you to get out of the house and go somewhere. That's valuable.

 

[ℬête Noire]

It would be impossible without DCFast.

It's not easy but it is possible. There's that crazy mofo that drove a Volt all over the country battery-only using Sharepoint. That was pretty damn hardcore, and about 2 steps from where I'd want to take things. If you want to make a longterm project of the trip, and you pack requisite gear for tapping RV plugs and stuff.

I do not share @harry 's take about comparison to the Tesla for road trips. I respect that he's gone out there and driven the miles but it doesn't quite add up if you're inside the Supercharger network, which is continuing to fill and and expand. The longer range Teslas can now travel Edmonton, AB to Key West, FL, to Acapulco, Guerrero (the Mexico leg now has the last of the required SC listed as live on Tesla's map, at least).

 

[N5329K]

This might be a useful site to help you compare and contrast ownership costs:
Save Money
Robin

 

[xav-]

As I near the deliver of my M3 RWD Tesla, my wife is having a little anxiety. I have tried to assure her that over the life of the vehicle it would be a savings. But she asks, "why can't we just get a $20,000 car?" I was averaging some costs of the ICE versus the Tesla and while the initial cost is obviously higher, I think the five year cost is less. If I figure the cost of $20,000, plus gas ($3 per gallon), other maintenance, plus higher registration, extended warranties, etc. The cost of a $20,000 car over 5 years is roughly $42,000. Wheras, the cost of a $50,000 Tesla, plus $3,500 for tax title license, cost of elect, future registration, it is less than $40,000. So the difference is marginal, but I am obviously getting a much nicer car.

Am I missing anything?

There is no way the model 3 is gonna cost what a $20k car cost. Now I will argue it costs a lot less than a comparable 3 series/c class. Also it remains to be seen that the car will be more reliable than a $20k car. That’s a big assumption.

The big argument to wifes usually is the safety aspect.. especially with kids. Don’t talk about speed.. talk about safety. If she’s the liberal type you can also talk about global warming and show her pictures of that polar bear that was starving. That should get the job done.

 

[chronopc]

 

[pkalhan]

@N5329K thanks for the link man!! If I wasn’t going to get the Model 3 I was looking into a certified BMW 335 and your link helped me out there. This thread really peaked my interest which made your link very useful. I hope it is relatively accurate.

 

[pkalhan]

Also thought I mention the the BMW was $37k with 12k miles with M package and other options.