Cost & Value: Sol-Ark vs. Powerwall

[Mayer]

I am investigating back up power for my home in Pennsylvania after installing a 15.33 kW SunPower array last year.

I come to this post without a reasonable understanding of the technology but learned a great deal over the weekend after posting about compatibility of SunPower with Powerwall.

I am communicating with a Tesla approved installer with solid Google reviews who just quoted $46k for 3 Powerwalls (Tesla quoted $33k with install per screen shot below).

Installer appears to be nudging me toward Sol-Ark, which appears to be good option since I would like to preserve ability to add a generator.

I’m wondering what someone more knowledgeable thinks about the installers pricing pitch. My concern is that if the quote for Powerwalls is unreasonably high, is the quote for Sol-Ark also unreasonably high.

The pricing quotes are as follows:

“We can install 2 Tesla PowerWalls for $31,495.
This would provide you with 27 kWh of storage.
If you wanted a 3rd Powerwall, for a total of 40 kWh of storage, then you would be looking at a cost of $45,995

One big thing here is to make sure that you have enough wall space available inside, near your main panel for the powerwall.

If you are interested in other options, we can set you up with a Solark/Homegrid system. This system comes with a SolArk 15 kW Inverter and Homegrid Batteries ranging from 10 kWh of storage up to 40+ kWh of storage. With this system you have a bit more flexibility in terms of battery size, as well as adding batteries in the future.

15 kW SolArk with 10 kWh of storage would be your minimal entry point for a cost of $22,500. We can add 5 kWh increments of storage for $4,000 a piece.
The other nice feature with this system is that it has an input for an external generator as well.“

 

[Mayer]

I’m not sure if I posted a clear question.
Does anyone believe the Tesla powerwall is a significantly superior product to Sol-Ark?

Does the quoted pricing on either system seem unreasonable?

 

[Redhill_qik]

I am investigating back up power for my home in Pennsylvania after installing a 15.33 kW SunPower array last year.

I come to this post without a reasonable understanding of the technology but learned a great deal over the weekend after posting about compatibility of SunPower with Powerwall.

I am communicating with a Tesla approved installer with solid Google reviews who just quoted $46k for 3 Powerwalls (Tesla quoted $33k with install per screen shot below).

Installer appears to be nudging me toward Sol-Ark, which appears to be good option since I would like to preserve ability to add a generator.

I’m wondering what someone more knowledgeable thinks about the installers pricing pitch. My concern is that if the quote for Powerwalls is unreasonably high, is the quote for Sol-Ark also unreasonably high.

The pricing quotes are as follows:

“We can install 2 Tesla PowerWalls for $31,495.
This would provide you with 27 kWh of storage.
If you wanted a 3rd Powerwall, for a total of 40 kWh of storage, then you would be looking at a cost of $45,995

One big thing here is to make sure that you have enough wall space available inside, near your main panel for the powerwall.

If you are interested in other options, we can set you up with a Solark/Homegrid system. This system comes with a SolArk 15 kW Inverter and Homegrid Batteries ranging from 10 kWh of storage up to 40+ kWh of storage. With this system you have a bit more flexibility in terms of battery size, as well as adding batteries in the future.

15 kW SolArk with 10 kWh of storage would be your minimal entry point for a cost of $22,500. We can add 5 kWh increments of storage for $4,000 a piece.
The other nice feature with this system is that it has an input for an external generator as well.“

Using your numbers equivalent SolArk systems would be $34,500 (25kWh) or $38,500 (30kWh) which are both more expensive than the $31,495 Tesla 2xPW (27.0kW). Same goes for a larger system with SolArk at $46,600 (40kWh) versus the $45,995 Tesla 3xPW (40.5kWh).

 

[Mayer]

Looks like this outfit is charging $15k in labor to install two Powerwalls whereas Tesla suggests installation should be about $7k, with total cost at $24,500 rather than $31,495 quoted.
I suppose installers might not agree with Tesla’s recommended installation pricing.

 

[jjrandorin]

I dont have any opinion on comparing the two, I will just say I think its important to know that, for Tesla powerwalls, my understanding is the vendor pays the same thing we pay (there is no vendor discount for them). This may or may not be true for "national" sized installers, but it probably is the case.

The reason that is relevant is, that means that when a vendor installs powerwalls, the only profit is on the labor to install them, not on the devices themselves, which is unusual in the "product" market. Normally a vendor gets a discount, so they can sell it at list price and make money on both the product and the labor, giving them more flexibility to slide pricing around.

Why is that relevant? Well, because I happen to believe that in money is a large motivator in a lot of different situations, not the least of which is "which product do I recommend to this customer, the one I make less money on, or the one I make more money on?" type of situations.

Looks like this outfit is charging $15k in labor to install two Powerwalls whereas Tesla suggests installation should be about $7k, with total cost at $24,500 rather than $31,495 quoted.
I suppose installers might not agree with Tesla’s recommended installation pricing.

What I said above, applies. They are likely not making a penny of profit on the powerwalls themselves (unlike Tesla which is likely making a profit on them since they are the manufacturer and set the pricing on them), so the only profit is labor for your third party vendor. The job needs to make sense for them to do it.

Now, if they provide the service to match the upcharge, then that is something to consider. High touch service is definitely worth something to a lot of people, as well as having someone to answer questions quickly, etc. Thats not Tesla's strength as anyone who has dealt with them knows, even those of us who are generally happy with the outcome.

 

[Mayer]

I dont have any opinion on comparing the two, I will just say I think its important to know that, for Tesla powerwalls, my understanding is the vendor pays the same thing we pay (there is no vendor discount for them). This may or may not be true for "national" sized installers, but it probably is the case.

The reason that is relevant is, that means that when a vendor installs powerwalls, the only profit is on the labor to install them, not on the devices themselves, which is unusual in the "product" market. Normally a vendor gets a discount, so they can sell it at list price and make money on both the product and the labor, giving them more flexibility to slide pricing around.

Why is that relevant? Well, because I happen to believe that in money is a large motivator in a lot of different situations, not the least of which is "which product do I recommend to this customer, the one I make less money on, or the one I make more money on?" type of situations.



What I said above, applies. They are likely not making a penny of profit on the powerwalls themselves (unlike Tesla which is likely making a profit on them since they are the manufacturer and set the pricing on them), so the only profit is labor for your third party vendor. The job needs to make sense for them to do it.

Now, if they provide the service to match the upcharge, then that is something to consider. High touch service is definitely worth something to a lot of people, as well as having someone to answer questions quickly, etc. Thats not Tesla's strength as anyone who has dealt with them knows, even those of us who are generally happy with the outcome.

Thank you, and I agree.

To your point that the compensation needs to make sense to the service provider:

I’m sure the installer is more interested in solar installation than back up battery installation, unless there is an equivalent profit margin.

I would like to preserve ability to install a generator if the battery system proves insufficient and that may justify the Sol-Ark option. On the other hand, we have survived 18 years in our house without any back up, so ….

 

[cali8484]

Does anyone believe the Tesla powerwall is a significantly superior product to Sol-Ark?

Aside from price, there are (too?) many product differences. Whether one is superior depends on what features you value. The Sol-Ark/HomeGrid (and any other similar component based inverter/battery systems) is way more flexible than a monolithic tightly integrated system like the PW. Think component vs integrated audio systems. With a component system like Sol-Ark/HomeGrid you can easily scale inverter power capacity and battery storage capacity independently and you can recharge charge the battery from any suitable power. It would very difficult or impossible to do the same with the PW. You also get much more direct control of the system with Sol-Ark (or any other similar inverter) compared to the PW (e.g. scheduling, frequency shifting, etc.). On the other hand, Sol-Ark monitoring app is not as sleek as the PW and you won't be able to monitoring everything from one app. Also, for Sol-Ark, keep in mind that product naming is misleading (e.g. 15kW refers to the max PV capacity rather the max output power which is actually lower).

 

[BGbreeder]

I am investigating back up power for my home in Pennsylvania after installing a 15.33 kW SunPower array last year.

I come to this post without a reasonable understanding of the technology but learned a great deal over the weekend after posting about compatibility of SunPower with Powerwall.

I am communicating with a Tesla approved installer with solid Google reviews who just quoted $46k for 3 Powerwalls (Tesla quoted $33k with install per screen shot below).

Installer appears to be nudging me toward Sol-Ark, which appears to be good option since I would like to preserve ability to add a generator.

I’m wondering what someone more knowledgeable thinks about the installers pricing pitch. My concern is that if the quote for Powerwalls is unreasonably high, is the quote for Sol-Ark also unreasonably high.

The pricing quotes are as follows:

“We can install 2 Tesla PowerWalls for $31,495.
This would provide you with 27 kWh of storage.
If you wanted a 3rd Powerwall, for a total of 40 kWh of storage, then you would be looking at a cost of $45,995

One big thing here is to make sure that you have enough wall space available inside, near your main panel for the powerwall.

If you are interested in other options, we can set you up with a Solark/Homegrid system. This system comes with a SolArk 15 kW Inverter and Homegrid Batteries ranging from 10 kWh of storage up to 40+ kWh of storage. With this system you have a bit more flexibility in terms of battery size, as well as adding batteries in the future.

15 kW SolArk with 10 kWh of storage would be your minimal entry point for a cost of $22,500. We can add 5 kWh increments of storage for $4,000 a piece.
The other nice feature with this system is that it has an input for an external generator as well.“

I agree @jjrandorin comments on pricing and incentives. I would point out that the apples to apples from this vendor is about the same Powerwall @ 40kWh and Sol-Ark @ 40kWh. But just to unbundle things a bit;
the quote for two powerwalls is $32k, of which $15k is labor, while the quote for the third as an add on is an additional 14k.
The first Powerwall requires a Gateway ($1k, per Tesla), so they are charging you $6k or so in labor for the third Powerwall which is a lot, given that marginal labor to add a third power is minmal. Most of the work is in the first one. An additional $8-10k would have been reasonable in my book, but, and it is a big but, local markets are local. I would seek out a few more folks to see whether there is any variation or price flexibility from others. I also wouldn't hesitate to be polite and say "Geez, that's a chunk of change. Is there a way we can work together to lower it?" Where we are, there aren't many vendors willing to work here, because the site adds some very real costs. It is what it is.

I have the concern that given recent inflation and the pandemic related challenges procuring electrical equipment plus the availability of "free" IRA money, means that many vendors are trying a) to protect themselves against the possibility of coming price increases, and b) trying to figure out how to pocket most of the IRA subsidies. (Essentially trying to work out the demand sensitivity by seeing which quotes are successful.)

It may make financial sense for you to install the generator first, and wait for the battery market to evolve a bit farther (e.g. Powerwall 3, higher volumes on competitors' batteries, more EVs with V2H options). Bleeding edge is never cheap in my view, and I am of the belief that home batteries are still bleeding edge.

Do pay attention to the wall space comment in your quote. I believe that the current NEC requirements are for 36" away from doors and windows that open into living spaces. Your AHJ may or may not be there yet.

All the best,

BG

 

[Mayer]

Aside from price, there are (too?) many product differences. Whether one is superior depends on what features you value. The Sol-Ark/HomeGrid (and any other similar component based inverter/battery systems) is way more flexible than a monolithic tightly integrated system like the PW. Think component vs integrated audio systems. With a component system like Sol-Ark/HomeGrid you can easily scale inverter power capacity and battery storage capacity independently and you can recharge charge the battery from any suitable power. It would very difficult or impossible to do the same with the PW. You also get much more direct control of the system with Sol-Ark (or any other similar inverter) compared to the PW (e.g. scheduling, frequency shifting, etc.). On the other hand, Sol-Ark monitoring app is not as sleek as the PW and you won't be able to monitoring everything from one app. Also, for Sol-Ark, keep in mind that product naming is misleading (e.g. 15kW refers to the max PV capacity rather the max output power which is actually lower).

A tightly integrated system may be a better fit for me since I’m not from tech world and plug and play might just be better.

On the other hand, it is my understanding that the PW will close the door on adding a generator if it proved necessary down the road.

 

[Mayer]

I agree @jjrandorin comments on pricing and incentives. I would point out that the apples to apples from this vendor is about the same Powerwall @ 40kWh and Sol-Ark @ 40kWh. But just to unbundle things a bit;
the quote for two powerwalls is $32k, of which $15k is labor, while the quote for the third as an add on is an additional 14k.
The first Powerwall requires a Gateway ($1k, per Tesla), so they are charging you $6k or so in labor for the third Powerwall which is a lot, given that marginal labor to add a third power is minmal. Most of the work is in the first one. An additional $8-10k would have been reasonable in my book, but, and it is a big but, local markets are local. I would seek out a few more folks to see whether there is any variation or price flexibility from others. I also wouldn't hesitate to be polite and say "Geez, that's a chunk of change. Is there a way we can work together to lower it?" Where we are, there aren't many vendors willing to work here, because the site adds some very real costs. It is what it is.

I have the concern that given recent inflation and the pandemic related challenges procuring electrical equipment plus the availability of "free" IRA money, means that many vendors are trying a) to protect themselves against the possibility of coming price increases, and b) trying to figure out how to pocket most of the IRA subsidies. (Essentially trying to work out the demand sensitivity by seeing which quotes are successful.)

It may make financial sense for you to install the generator first, and wait for the battery market to evolve a bit farther (e.g. Powerwall 3, higher volumes on competitors' batteries, more EVs with V2H options). Bleeding edge is never cheap in my view, and I am of the belief that home batteries are still bleeding edge.

Do pay attention to the wall space comment in your quote. I believe that the current NEC requirements are for 36" away from doors and windows that open into living spaces. Your AHJ may or may not be there yet.

All the best,

BG

Thank you.
If I did install generator first, wouldn’t that preclude a PW later; my understanding is the PW is incompatible with a generator?

 

[Mayer]

Received email from Tesla advising of a pre-installation inspection!
Hopefully this means both Powerwalls will be installed at the price point quoted by Tesla of $24,417, rather than the quote from local certified installer of $31,945.

But Tesla’s notice of site inspection included notice of placing an anchor in my roof?
Maybe Tesla interpreted my Powerwall order as one for solar panels:

 

[BGbreeder]

Thank you.
If I did install generator first, wouldn’t that preclude a PW later; my understanding is the PW is incompatible with a generator?

Not entirely. Tesla's preferred integration with a generator is downstream of the solar and powerwalls but upstream of the house as an either / or option. So, a manual transfer switch would enable you to charge the Powerwalls from solar, and run the house from a generator, with the solar and Powerwalls isolated from the house loads and the generator.

What is restricted is using a generator to charge Powerwalls. My understanding based on older documentation from Tesla is that this was permitted in off grid applications, and only for certain models generators.

Other vendors such as Enphase support the generator as a full fledged partner in energy, and support generator charging of batteries. E.g.

https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/2021-10/Enphase-Generator-Support-Technical-Brief.pdf

To my mind, this is a far superior option as it allows the generator to run at full, or close to full, capacity to charge the batteries with help from solar. Then when the batteries are full enough, the generator shuts down until needed. Perfect for winter time, storm, blizzard, or summer time use. I think it is one of two major shortcomings of the Tesla ecosystem.

(The roof anchor, aka fall protection anchor, is for the technician's safety. It is some times as simple as a hook on the far side eaves. In this day and age, I think that it is a great idea to have them on all roof tops permanently. Why take added risks?)

All the best,

BG

 

[Mayer]

Not entirely. Tesla's preferred integration with a generator is downstream of the solar and powerwalls but upstream of the house as an either / or option. So, a manual transfer switch would enable you to charge the Powerwalls from solar, and run the house from a generator, with the solar and Powerwalls isolated from the house loads and the generator.

What is restricted is using a generator to charge Powerwalls. My understanding based on older documentation from Tesla is that this was permitted in off grid applications, and only for certain models generators.

Other vendors such as Enphase support the generator as a full fledged partner in energy, and support generator charging of batteries. E.g.

https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/2021-10/Enphase-Generator-Support-Technical-Brief.pdf

To my mind, this is a far superior option as it allows the generator to run at full, or close to full, capacity to charge the batteries with help from solar. Then when the batteries are full enough, the generator shuts down until needed. Perfect for winter time, storm, blizzard, or summer time use. I think it is one of two major shortcomings of the Tesla ecosystem.

(The roof anchor, aka fall protection anchor, is for the technician's safety. It is some times as simple as a hook on the far side eaves. In this day and age, I think that it is a great idea to have them on all roof tops permanently. Why take added risks?)

All the best,

BG

Very helpful to know this information.
Of course it’s my hope that either battery or generator would be sufficient for our needs since we have survived 18 years in our house with no back up power beyond a Vermont Casting wood stove and several candles. But we were much younger then.
I’ll consider Enphase if the Tesla install stumbles inasmuch as the system you describe, with the generator helping to charge the batteries when needed, seems appealing. I assume it reduces need to use as much propane.

Reminded me of the often quoted law of physics attributed to Einstein: Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another

Thank you BG for the continued feedback and helpful information.

 

[jjrandorin]

Thank you.
If I did install generator first, wouldn’t that preclude a PW later; my understanding is the PW is incompatible with a generator?

I dont have a generator, but I think @BGbreeder covered it well. We do have several regular members of our little niche subforum here that have both PV / Powerwalls and generators. In a nutshell, with tesla powerwalls, the generator does not charge the powewalls.

The workflow for those with generators and powerwalls is "House runs off powerwalls and solar until it cant any longer due to no solar / not enough battery capacity, then house runs off generator till those circumstances change".

They are independent of each other (generator / solar+ powerwalls) and the generator does not charge the batteries, nor do the two products interact with each other in any way. Its "either, or".

In some other solutions from other vendors, the generator can charge the batteries.

So, you dont have to "give up" on having a generator if you go with powerwalls, but you basically have to give up on the idea of the generator charging the batteries (vs the generator just running the house).

In practice it probably doesnt make much difference, but I dont have first hand knowledge.

 

[Mayer]

I dont have a generator, but I think @BGbreeder covered it well. We do have several regular members of our little niche subforum here that have both PV / Powerwalls and generators. In a nutshell, with tesla powerwalls, the generator does not charge the powewalls.

The workflow for those with generators and powerwalls is "House runs off powerwalls and solar until it cant any longer due to no solar / not enough battery capacity, then house runs off generator till those circumstances change".

They are independent of each other (generator / solar+ powerwalls) and the generator does not charge the batteries, nor do the two products interact with each other in any way. Its "either, or".

In some other solutions from other vendors, the generator can charge the batteries.

So, you dont have to "give up" on having a generator if you go with powerwalls, but you basically have to give up on the idea of the generator charging the batteries (vs the generator just running the house).

In practice it probably doesnt make much difference, but I dont have first hand knowledge.

Thank you @jjrandorin.
This is really the information I’ve been trying to access and understand.
Perfect!

 

[dhrivnak]

I am investigating back up power for my home in Pennsylvania after installing a 15.33 kW SunPower array last year.

I come to this post without a reasonable understanding of the technology but learned a great deal over the weekend after posting about compatibility of SunPower with Powerwall.

I am communicating with a Tesla approved installer with solid Google reviews who just quoted $46k for 3 Powerwalls (Tesla quoted $33k with install per screen shot below).

Installer appears to be nudging me toward Sol-Ark, which appears to be good option since I would like to preserve ability to add a generator.

I’m wondering what someone more knowledgeable thinks about the installers pricing pitch. My concern is that if the quote for Powerwalls is unreasonably high, is the quote for Sol-Ark also unreasonably high.

The pricing quotes are as follows:

“We can install 2 Tesla PowerWalls for $31,495.
This would provide you with 27 kWh of storage.
If you wanted a 3rd Powerwall, for a total of 40 kWh of storage, then you would be looking at a cost of $45,995

One big thing here is to make sure that you have enough wall space available inside, near your main panel for the powerwall.

If you are interested in other options, we can set you up with a Solark/Homegrid system. This system comes with a SolArk 15 kW Inverter and Homegrid Batteries ranging from 10 kWh of storage up to 40+ kWh of storage. With this system you have a bit more flexibility in terms of battery size, as well as adding batteries in the future.

15 kW SolArk with 10 kWh of storage would be your minimal entry point for a cost of $22,500. We can add 5 kWh increments of storage for $4,000 a piece.
The other nice feature with this system is that it has an input for an external generator as well.“

I have installed many Sol-Ark systems. I like them a lot, they are easy to set up. You have full control of them and their support is second to none. It is also straight forward to add a generator. But not sure how the pricing is arrived up. I assume since you have solar you already have an inverter. So the Sol-Ark would be double buying the inverter. Another option we use is the FranklinWH AC coupled battery. So far Tesla has over promised and greatly under delivered on PowerWalls.

 

[cali8484]

A tightly integrated system may be a better fit for me since I’m not from tech world and plug and play might just be better. On the other hand, it is my understanding that the PW will close the door on adding a generator if it proved necessary down the road.

Unless you are planning on DIY it shouldn't matter much to you. A knowlegeable installer should be able to integrate and configure component systems to meet your desires. The flexibility of a component systems allows a installer to build a best fit system for you now and later. That's much more difficult or impossible with the PW. The lack of support in the PW for battery charging from a generator is great example.

As you can see from the posts, there are many home battery choices now that many installers prefer over the PW because Tesla treats them kinda of like how car dealers are treated by Tesla.

 

[Mayer]

I have installed many Sol-Ark systems. I like them a lot, they are easy to set up. You have full control of them and their support is second to none. It is also straight forward to add a generator. But not sure how the pricing is arrived up. I assume since you have solar you already have an inverter. So the Sol-Ark would be double buying the inverter. Another option we use is the FranklinWH AC coupled battery. So far Tesla has over promised and greatly under delivered on

Unless you are planning on DIY it shouldn't matter much to you. A knowlegeable installer should be able to integrate and configure component systems to meet your desires. The flexibility of a component systems allows a installer to build a best fit system for you now and later. That's much more difficult or impossible with the PW. The lack of support in the PW for battery charging from a generator is great example.

As you can see from the posts, there are many home battery choices now that many installers prefer over the PW because Tesla treats them kinda of like how car dealers are treated by Tesla.

Sounds like there are plenty of options to consider. In the end, options could be limited to what the reputable service provider in my neck of the woods is working with. Maybe I can convince that outfit to consider something like the FranklinWH

Plenty more to ponder.

Thank you to this entire group.

Very helpful.

 

[nwdiver]

If you like software integration go with Tesla. If you want the flexibility to 'tinker' or add more storage yourself later, go with Sol-Ark.

 

[Mayer]

Anyone watching this program released today: