David's Supercharger location and deployment analysis

[efusco]

In an ideal world, charging when you're there should be at your hotel. Even otherwise, I want to charge on the freeway before going into the city which should provide me with all the range I need to drive around while there. I don't want to have to find some downtown location to charge.

Sometimes I don't have a hotel. I drive that distance for a same day meeting, or a trip to the baseball game or the zoo or a museum. Many hotels, esp. out here in the midwest, don't have any means of charging.

As I pointed out earlier...at least in my situation, a supercharger located in or very near the 5 major cities within 200 miles of my home would allow me to make the trip with just one charge/stop. located in between I'm going to have to make 2 stops to make the trip, unless I can charge within the city.

Obviously, in an ideal world with unlimited funds we'd want banks of 10 superchargers located every 50 miles between and within every city, so we're arguing priority. The question is do you prioritize for the distant traveler and assuming alternate charging will be available within the cities, or do you assume that the cities are the destination and only install as many in-between chargers as absolutely necessary when the distance is greater than 200 miles between the cities?

 

[gregincal]

Sometimes I don't have a hotel. I drive that distance for a same day meeting, or a trip to the baseball game or the zoo or a museum. Many hotels, esp. out here in the midwest, don't have any means of charging.

As I pointed out earlier...at least in my situation, a supercharger located in or very near the 5 major cities within 200 miles of my home would allow me to make the trip with just one charge/stop. located in between I'm going to have to make 2 stops to make the trip, unless I can charge within the city.

Obviously, in an ideal world with unlimited funds we'd want banks of 10 superchargers located every 50 miles between and within every city, so we're arguing priority. The question is do you prioritize for the distant traveler and assuming alternate charging will be available within the cities, or do you assume that the cities are the destination and only install as many in-between chargers as absolutely necessary when the distance is greater than 200 miles between the cities?

In your case if there is one located between the cities you need to stop twice, but Tesla only builds one. If you put it near your destination city that's great for you, but sucks for somebody driving the other way. Between cities is definitely the most efficient way to do it. I really believe superchargers between cities and eventually third party lower wattage DC charging in cities will be the eventual solution. Even if you have a meeting, the point is you are stopping, so you have more time to charge your car then when you are on the road.

 

[Larry Chanin]

I think the idea of city based superchargers is that a city is a destination for many people. I'd like to drive from my house in Nixa, MO the 225 miles to St.Louis non-stop. Arrive at a supercharger, plug in, go have lunch, move the car to a non-Supercharger parking space at my hotel or where ever and go enjoy my day. Maybe I'll top up the charge just before heading home again.

I see that as a much more convenient way to drive than having to stop half-way between the two destinations while I still have almost half a charge, and then stop again on the way home.

I think having along/between is important too, particularly when the distance b/w cities is more than about 150 miles.

Hi Evan,

One of my earlier points was during the initial rollout when Superchargers are scarce it would be better if they weren't placed in destination cities where people with overnight charging at hotels really don't need them.

Obviously, in an ideal world with unlimited funds we'd want banks of 10 superchargers located every 50 miles between and within every city, so we're arguing priority. The question is do you prioritize for the distant traveler and assuming alternate charging will be available within the cities, or do you assume that the cities are the destination and only install as many in-between chargers as absolutely necessary when the distance is greater than 200 miles between the cities?

Agreed we are arguing priority. If you are Tesla and are selecting initial locations, you do your homework and check for the availability of hotel charging at destination cities before placing an initial Supercharger. Later as the network gets filled in this probably won't matter.

I have absolutely no problem with a Supercharger happening to be located near a major city, as long as it is strategically located and has the necessary amenities as first priorities. I just put no weight in the fact that there may be a lot of Tesla owners also located at that city as a first priority criteria for locating Superchargers.

Larry

 

[Larry Chanin]

Larry - ok think about this - there are many more small cities than big cities. especially small cities where there are TWO connecting interstates - a city along the route. perhaps that city doesn't even have ANY S owners. it doesn't make sense to put TWO superchargers to each side of the city rather than in that city - especially when that city is midpoint between two larger cites. You cut the cost in half in this case. This is an extreme case but it actually makes sense for cities with three connecting corridors.

remember I'm NOT arguing which strategy is BEST... i'm making the case that certain strategies should be deployed FIRST before another. it's a balance and a compromise.

Ok... take a look at macon GA and augusta - it TOTALLY makes sense to take the city-centric strategy FIRST
for a city like Atlanta it makes sense to take the between-city strategy FIRST.

here is an example with a map
Atlanta, GA to Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

having a city-centric supercharger in macon enables the atlanta-savannah, atlanta-jacksonville, atlanta-tallahasse trip

having a city-centric supercharger in august enables atlanta-charleston, atlanta-columbia, atlanta-myrtle beach(South carolina coast) trip

if you insist on between-city superchargers you just doubled the instructure cost

see what I mean?

David,

No, I don't see what you mean.

As I explained to Evan:

I have absolutely no problem with a Supercharger happening to be located near a major city, as long as it is strategically located and has the necessary amenities as first priorities. I just put no weight in the fact that there may be a lot of Tesla owners also located at that city as a first priority criteria for locating Superchargers.

What you refuse to recognize is that putting Superchargers where people live simply doesn't help owners traveling beyond the range of their Model S.

Unfortuately your map demonstrates nothing usefull because you simply can't just pace off mileage on a highway or look for highway intersections to cite a Supercharger. You must find a strategic location (which may be at the intersection of multiple highways) AND find a suitable location with the necessary amenities AND a host willing to let Tesla put a Supercharger there. As I said if those first priority considerations (strategic location & necessary amenities) turn out to be located near a major city or small city fine, but starting off locating them in a major city simply because a lot of owners live there makes absolutely no sense, because they already have a near full charge. This only promotes the unproductive practice off having locals obtain free energy. It doesn't assist long distance travel.

It seems that we're not likely to convince each other with further discussion, so perhaps we should just respectfully agree to disagree.

Larry

 

[4sevens.com]

David,

No, I don't see what you mean.

As I explained to Evan:



What you refuse to recognize is that putting Superchargers where people live simply doesn't help owners traveling beyond the range of their Model S.

Unfortuately your map demonstrates nothing usefull because you simply can't just pace off mileage on a highway or look for highway intersections to cite a Supercharger. You must find a strategic location (which may be at the intersection of multiple highways) AND find a suitable location with the necessary amenities AND a host willing to let Tesla put a Supercharger there. As I said if those first priority considerations (strategic location & necessary amenities) turn out to be located near a major city or small city fine, but starting off locating them in a major city simply because a lot of owners live there makes absolutely no sense, because they already have a near full charge. This only promotes the unproductive practice off having locals obtain free energy. It doesn't assist long distance travel.

It seems that we're not likely to convince each other with further discussion, so perhaps we should just respectfully agree to disagree.

Larry

Larry - you missed my whole premise.... I said small towns where NO S owner exist and have only two or three interstate legs (pretty much a small city in the middle of an interstate) - then it totally makes sense. Take a look at those two examples AGAIN.... assume the extreme... no S owners in Macon or Augusta - it TOTALLY makes sense to put a SC in the middle of those small cities INSTEAD of the two or three interstate legs. You missed my whole premise.

Moving just slightly from the extreme example... say there is ONE S owner in macon and ONE in Augusta... and assume there are 150+ S owners in Atlanta (which is actually pretty accurate) Then it totally makes sense to put superchargers in the center of Macon and Augusta.... It's a no brainer.... would you rather put FIVE superchargers on the connecting legs instead of TWO in Macon and Augusta? If Tesla deploys smartly that just means more coverage elsewhere.

Reread my premise and think through my logic. It totally makes sense.

 

[Larry Chanin]

... and assume there are 150+ S owners in Atlanta (which is actually pretty accurate) Then it totally makes sense to put superchargers in the center of Macon and Augusta....

David,

You seem to have conveniently forgotten your initial statement that stimulated my response. Please let me remind you of what you stated in your original posting:

2. If a there is a high density of owners in a city then a city-centric strategy deployed first makes sense

So if we were to literally accept your initial posted rationale we would have put the Supercharger in Atlanta, not Macon or Augusta.

This process is not simply about doing Google Map searches and finding theoretical ideal locations and putting placemarks there. That would be designing at the 60,000 ft. level. Tesla has to zoom in to street level and actually find real locations with real amenities with real hosts that are willing to cooperate. That reality check of finding actual, real world host locations trumps any high level concepts you have proposed that uses ownership densities in cities to cite Supercharger stations.

Larry

 

[Babylonfive]

+1 Larry

 

[4sevens.com]

Larry -

I think I reversed the logic with the hybrid approach... first post edited.... sorry

David

David,

You seem to have conveniently forgotten your initial statement that stimulated my response. Please let me remind you of what you stated in your original posting:



So if we were to literally accept your initial posted rationale we would have put the Supercharger in Atlanta, not Macon or Augusta.

This process is not simply about doing Google Map searches and finding theoretical ideal locations and putting placemarks there. That would be designing at the 60,000 ft. level. Tesla has to zoom in to street level and actually find real locations with real amenities with real hosts that are willing to cooperate. That reality check of finding actual, real world host locations trumps any high level concepts you have proposed that uses ownership densities in cities to cite Supercharger stations.

Larry

 

[caddieo]

FWIW, Let me try to crystallize the principles of supercharger station placement, almost all of which have been touched on throughout this thread.
1. The main purpose of superchargers, IMHO, is to allow travel beyond 200 miles especially for those who, at the 200 mile mark are far from their primary charging stations - their garages.
2. The main users would therefore appear to be long distance travelers and the situations when they need charging include:
a. Being in the middle of nowhere
b. Approaching a destination city and need a boost to allow extended driving within the city
c. Leaving a destination city and needing a boost for the long road ahead to the next station.
d. Approaching or leaving an "in-transit" city on the way to a farther destination.
On the basis of the above, it seems that:
1. Superchargers are not needed within cities as the residents of cities and their close-in suburbs are almost always back in their garages by the end of the day. For those who are not or who have unusually long commutes, there are usually alternative sources of charging.
2. On the basis of 2-b, c, and d above, a ring of stations just beyond a city's boundaries and on the major entering and leaving interstates would be ideal.
3. Ideally, these stations should also have amenities. However, keeping the primary purpose in mind - expediting and facilitating long distance travel - then amenities be damned except for restrooms.
4. No. 3 above now brings into play the interstate rest areas especially in the extreme rural legs of any long distance route.

 

[Larry Chanin]

3. Ideally, these stations should also have amenities. However, keeping the primary purpose in mind - expediting and facilitating long distance travel - then amenities be damned except for restrooms.

Hi Archie,

Nice summary.

Whereas I agree that in some circumstances that amenities may of necessity have to be basic, I sincerely doubt that Tesla would ever place a Supercharger station next to just a restroom. :wink:

Larry

 

[gregincal]

Hi Archie,

Nice summary.

Whereas I agree that in some circumstances that amenities may of necessity have to be basic, I sincerely doubt that Tesla would ever place a Supercharger station next to just a restroom. :wink:

Larry

People spend 30 minutes to an hour at a supercharger, I hope it doesn't take me that long to go to the bathroom. :wink: I would say some sort of food sales and an inside place to sit down is a minimum necessity.

 

[fengshui]

(I moved my original reply to the right thread. Here's what I meant to say here)

From the locations we've identified in the Central Coast of california, Tesla appears to be intentionally avoiding larger cities, per David's Location Strategy A. They've placed the two chargers for the California central coast 101 route in small cities (Paso Robles and Buellton) approximately 30 minutes North of the two major cities on the Central Coast (San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara).

 

[MikeC]

Larry - you missed my whole premise.... I said small towns where NO S owner exist and have only two or three interstate legs (pretty much a small city in the middle of an interstate) - then it totally makes sense. Take a look at those two examples AGAIN.... assume the extreme... no S owners in Macon or Augusta - it TOTALLY makes sense to put a SC in the middle of those small cities INSTEAD of the two or three interstate legs. You missed my whole premise.

Moving just slightly from the extreme example... say there is ONE S owner in macon and ONE in Augusta... and assume there are 150+ S owners in Atlanta (which is actually pretty accurate) Then it totally makes sense to put superchargers in the center of Macon and Augusta.... It's a no brainer.... would you rather put FIVE superchargers on the connecting legs instead of TWO in Macon and Augusta? If Tesla deploys smartly that just means more coverage elsewhere.

Reread my premise and think through my logic. It totally makes sense.

I think by "cities", we're talking about major ones like Atlanta. Having never been to Georgia, and hopefully at no offense to any Maconians here, I would think a Supercharger in a small town like Macon with multiple freeway junctions would be just fine. Gilroy, Folsom, and Barstow are "cities".

Then there's the Hawthorne charger which is in Los Angeles, but that may be unique because of the geographical sprawl of the city and SpaceX HQ.

 

[Larry Chanin]

(I moved my original reply to the right thread. Here's what I meant to say here)

From the locations we've identified in the Central Coast of california, Tesla appears to be intentionally avoiding larger cities, per David's Location Strategy A. They've placed the two chargers for the California central coast 101 route in small cities (Paso Robles and Buellton) approximately 30 minutes North of the two major cities on the Central Coast (San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara).

Yes, as demonstrated by the following Tesla exhibit. Notice that destinations are distinguished from Supercharger locations.

So far Tesla doesn't appear to be interested in David's Location Strategy B, "city centric", with the exception of the LA Design Center Supercharger.

Larry

 

[deonb]

There would have to be a way to keep people who live within that city from using the Superchargers for normal use. Maybe not make city based Superchargers free to discourage people tying them up who didn't really need them. People who lived there could still use them but would have to decided if the cost was worth it over charging at home. Of course there are some people in apartments that can't charge at home though.

Tesla can designate that if you live within e.g. 30 miles of a city SuperCharger, then the SuperCharger will not charge the battery any further than e.g. to the 40 mile point. (Unless you call up Tesla with an emergency request).

That will make it inconvenient enough that local people won't bother unless they really need the charge to get home. And even if you do charge, it will be done within 10 mins.

 

[4sevens.com]

Yes, as demonstrated by the following Tesla exhibit. Notice that destinations are distinguished from Supercharger locations.

So far Tesla doesn't appear to be interested in David's Location Strategy B, "city centric", with the exception of the LA Design Center Supercharger.

Larry

Larry - note that when I opened this thread I didn't say which strategy was best - rather - note that the third strategy is a hybrid of the first two... it all depends on the circumstances.

If you notice Tesla does indeed use the city centric strategy in certain circumstances....
Supercharger | Tesla Motors

Savannah, GA
Macon, GA
Jacksonville, FL
Daytona Beach, FL (great for visiting the races in Daytona!!)
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Ft Meyers, FL

 

[brianman]

Yes, as demonstrated by the following Tesla exhibit. Notice that destinations are distinguished from Supercharger locations.

IMO, it's somewhat unfortunate that they've used grey for "Destination" here. They should have used some other color (besides gray and red) to avoid confusion with the gray used on the Supercharger rollout timeline images.

 

[4sevens.com]

Looks like tesla is taking the hybrid strategy - there are just as many city-centric SC's as between-city locations by 2015.

Here is a great thread with huge overlays of the SC locations over a detailed map.
Supercharger Overlay 2015 (Large - 5145 x 3308))

Here are the direct links to the HUGE images
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22902&d=1370009399

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22885&d=1369975059

Of course the SC in a city are not in the city center but they are very close and just right outside of the city.
They are closer to the city than the midpoint between two cities.

 

[PhilBa]

Looks like tesla is taking the hybrid strategy - there are just as many city-centric SC's as between-city locations by 2015.

Here is a great thread with huge overlays of the SC locations over a detailed map.
Supercharger Overlay 2015 (Large - 5145 x 3308))

Here are the direct links to the HUGE images
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22902&d=1370009399

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22885&d=1369975059

Of course the SC in a city are not in the city center but they are very close and just right outside of the city.
They are closer to the city than the midpoint between two cities.

Color me jaded but I think the 2014 and 2015 maps are fantasy. I think they were done in haste for the announcement. There are a lot of "double dots" - where two sites are very close together - that make little sense. Examples: Salem, OR; Lafayatte, IN; Augusta, GA; Gilroy/Salinas, CA. (The Salinas one looks to be correcting the problem of the Gilroy placement for 101 coverage.) There are lots of additional ones that are a bit farther apart but not really making sense from a road trip coverage perspective. Also, there are a couple of "stretches" in the 2013 placement. If Salem, OR is a planned SC site, it is pretty far from the confirmed Centralia, WA site (140 miles), I think they will realize that Wilsonville, OR is a far better choice.

So, I think there was a fair amount of "winging it" yesterday.

 

[ElSupreme]

Color me jaded but I think the 2014 and 2015 maps are fantasy. I think they were done in haste for the announcement. There are a lot of "double dots" - where two sites are very close together - that make little sense. Examples: Salem, OR; Lafayatte, IN; Augusta, GA; Gilroy/Salinas, CA. (The Salinas one looks to be correcting the problem of the Gilroy placement for 101 coverage.) There are lots of additional ones that are a bit farther apart but not really making sense from a road trip coverage perspective. Also, there are a couple of "stretches" in the 2013 placement. If Salem, OR is a planned SC site, it is pretty far from the confirmed Centralia, WA site (140 miles), I think they will realize that Wilsonville, OR is a far better choice.

So, I think there was a fair amount of "winging it" yesterday.

Yeah I think Tesla probably has a 6-9 month plant at the moment. Maybe a longer term plan for a cross country travel route or two. But They don't have a way out of Atlanta (except I-85 north) until 2015. I doubt it will take that long. Sure I think that is the most important Atlanta route (and not only because my Brother lives in Charlotte). But Chattanooga, Macon, Birmingham, and I-75 to Florida are other big routes.

I doubt Tesla will neglect these for years. And there is a huge 210 mile gap between Macon and Lake City FL on those maps that isn't going to last. And the gap between Montgomery and Gulfport, MS (should probably be Mobile, AL) is also exceptionally large. Nashville to Memphis is also quite a gap. Basically anything past the 'Winter 2013' dots look to me to be VERY approximate.

And they are adding ~30-40 dots for a quarter in 2013, and only showing the same for the 2014 and 2015 years. I doubt supercharger installation will slow, until they get fairly good route (not area) saturation around the largest 20 cities or so.