When you say "the feel" of coil you mean; handling, smoothness and ability to absorb bumps, or something else?
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Deciding on suspension, how does everyone else about air vs. coil?
- Thread starter gnychis
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
When you say "the feel" of coil you mean; handling, smoothness and ability to absorb bumps, or something else?
gnelson
Member
I haven't experienced bump steer in my P85+. I haven't had the opportunity to drive a coil spring Model S; so, I can't evaluate the tendency for bump steer. I can remember experiencing bump steer in my 2001 Corvette with coils suspension. I never experienced bump steer in my 2003 Corvette with the magnetic ride suspension.
I have no regrets for getting the P85+ with the air suspension. I still have 5.6 and have the full functionality of the suspension.
I have no regrets for getting the P85+ with the air suspension. I still have 5.6 and have the full functionality of the suspension.
I have the coil suspension Model S and I like the ride comfort. It communicates more road feel than most cars I've driven without being harsh, IMO. It's a nice balance. It's been very comfortable during our long road trips.
I've not driven an air suspension Model S. Was hoping for a P85+ loaner when my car was in for its 12K mile service this week, but the SC had no MS loaners available.
I've not driven an air suspension Model S. Was hoping for a P85+ loaner when my car was in for its 12K mile service this week, but the SC had no MS loaners available.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
I love my wife's S85 coil. Now if it only had the ride height and some other features of my P+ it would be perfect.
I should be trying P+ on standard air dampers and using coil springs. This will be interesting.
For informational purposes-
coil spring dampers have the least amount of compression and rebound damping
standard air dampers have more compression and rebound damping
P+ dampers have the most compression and rebound damping
All dampers are Billstein (50mm I think) units. The coil spring dampers have longer bodies and throw. I've posted shock dyno plot on the modifications thread for the nerd in you.
Oh, and when I'm asked which is better I answer-
If you like an AMG E63, go air.
If you like an M5, go coil.
I should be trying P+ on standard air dampers and using coil springs. This will be interesting.
For informational purposes-
coil spring dampers have the least amount of compression and rebound damping
standard air dampers have more compression and rebound damping
P+ dampers have the most compression and rebound damping
All dampers are Billstein (50mm I think) units. The coil spring dampers have longer bodies and throw. I've posted shock dyno plot on the modifications thread for the nerd in you.
Oh, and when I'm asked which is better I answer-
If you like an AMG E63, go air.
If you like an M5, go coil.
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Have you put some stickier 19" tires on your wife's S85 yet? I'm wondering how much that simple change would improve handling compared to the other mods you've discussed.
Sounds like your wife and I have similar configs, though I got mine just before Tesla switched 19s to the Primacy.
Sounds like your wife and I have similar configs, though I got mine just before Tesla switched 19s to the Primacy.
Handling, feedback from the road, i.e. the feeling that the car is firmly connected to the road and won't do something unexpected.
My experience is that the 85 variants absorb bumps better than the 60, so the mass of the car seems to have more to do with it than the suspension does.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
CD,
No new tires yet as I think she is still in the 3-4K mile range. That should make a difference.
I think an even bigger difference could be had for little cost. Bilstein sets their ride heights by using C clips on the damper body. Their adjustable ride height truck dampers have multiple clip grooves allowing the owner to raise the lower spring perch and thus the car. Applying the same thought process to MS' coil spring dampers would allow you to put a lower groove on each damper to move the lower spring perch down. Putting the car at the Standard air ride height seems to be a very good place to start but there are two things to be considered. First, you loose ground clearance for parking stops and the like and, unlike air, you do not have the ability to easily and quickly raise the car. Second, Tesla has surely put a lot of thought into spring rate and preload such that they achieve the desired ride height unloaded and fully loaded. Reducing pre-load (affectively what you are doing when you lower the lower spring perch - you start off with less force on the spring) means you are now responsible for how the car sits fully loaded. There is a very real chance of having the car hit the bump stops when going over bumps at gross weight.
Most "lowering springs" have an increased spring rate to account for this change fully loaded gross weight ride height. This approach can be taken with MS but that requires either (1) winding custom springs or (2) moving over to 2.5" closed wound and ground springs. In short, there is some real work to be done here to do the job correctly.
Oh, and it is worth mentioning that the air spring dampers which "live" at these lower settings are both shorter in shock body and stroke (although I need to check that second part). To really properly do the lowering job like Tesla does, you would have to move to air dampers using coil springs (of perhaps a different rate).
No new tires yet as I think she is still in the 3-4K mile range. That should make a difference.
I think an even bigger difference could be had for little cost. Bilstein sets their ride heights by using C clips on the damper body. Their adjustable ride height truck dampers have multiple clip grooves allowing the owner to raise the lower spring perch and thus the car. Applying the same thought process to MS' coil spring dampers would allow you to put a lower groove on each damper to move the lower spring perch down. Putting the car at the Standard air ride height seems to be a very good place to start but there are two things to be considered. First, you loose ground clearance for parking stops and the like and, unlike air, you do not have the ability to easily and quickly raise the car. Second, Tesla has surely put a lot of thought into spring rate and preload such that they achieve the desired ride height unloaded and fully loaded. Reducing pre-load (affectively what you are doing when you lower the lower spring perch - you start off with less force on the spring) means you are now responsible for how the car sits fully loaded. There is a very real chance of having the car hit the bump stops when going over bumps at gross weight.
Most "lowering springs" have an increased spring rate to account for this change fully loaded gross weight ride height. This approach can be taken with MS but that requires either (1) winding custom springs or (2) moving over to 2.5" closed wound and ground springs. In short, there is some real work to be done here to do the job correctly.
Oh, and it is worth mentioning that the air spring dampers which "live" at these lower settings are both shorter in shock body and stroke (although I need to check that second part). To really properly do the lowering job like Tesla does, you would have to move to air dampers using coil springs (of perhaps a different rate).
I just bought an S with 19 inch wheels and coils. I test drove an air and it felt similar to my A7. The sales rep said the air and coil ride quality was almost the same. He recommended the coils unless I had a steep driveway.
I mistakenly ordered the coils without test driving. I was rushed due to the December price increase and due to a change in Colorado tax credit. Big mistake. The coils are extremely bouncy. It feels like one of those tricked out cars you see in the movies bouncing to base with oversized wheels etc.
At 70 mph, my head is constantly moving up and down even on a nice highway. I just came back from a test drive of another air, just to see if I was crazy. Nope, the air feels fine. The coils give it the worst bounce of any car I've ever driven.
Hopefully the coils are somehow defective, but I doubt it. I think I'm just screwed.
Op : TEST DRIVE BOTH. TEST DRIVE BOTH. TEST DRIVE BOTH!!
Take the car out by yourself - no sales rep - So you can take your time and not be distracted by idle chit chat.
I mistakenly ordered the coils without test driving. I was rushed due to the December price increase and due to a change in Colorado tax credit. Big mistake. The coils are extremely bouncy. It feels like one of those tricked out cars you see in the movies bouncing to base with oversized wheels etc.
At 70 mph, my head is constantly moving up and down even on a nice highway. I just came back from a test drive of another air, just to see if I was crazy. Nope, the air feels fine. The coils give it the worst bounce of any car I've ever driven.
Hopefully the coils are somehow defective, but I doubt it. I think I'm just screwed.
Op : TEST DRIVE BOTH. TEST DRIVE BOTH. TEST DRIVE BOTH!!
Take the car out by yourself - no sales rep - So you can take your time and not be distracted by idle chit chat.
I chose coils because of long term reliability concerns and the air setup truly is no different from any other automaker, other than you can set the height. I debated a bit too but a lot of people said they didn't notice much of a difference between air & coils.
I did scrape the bottom of the car just a bit, I was driving though a really rough bumpy alley too fast just after getting the car. Haven't scraped since. If I did it again, I'd probably go coils again. If I had a service center in my city and didn't plan on keeping the car more than 4 years I'd probably go air.
I did scrape the bottom of the car just a bit, I was driving though a really rough bumpy alley too fast just after getting the car. Haven't scraped since. If I did it again, I'd probably go coils again. If I had a service center in my city and didn't plan on keeping the car more than 4 years I'd probably go air.
I drive both types of suspensions. The air rides softer and floats a very little bit and the coils are slightly bumpier. I do not benefit from the air suspension as much since I am usually the only rider and no cargo. 19" base wheels and 20" TST for both vehicles (winter/summer sets). I don't have or feel the constant bouncing that @Deans reported in his vehicle.
The long term durability and rather steep maintenance costs associated with air vs. coil would sway me towards choosing coil if I were to keep the car for more than 5 years. It is kind of neat that it's another featured option on the touchscreen with correlating animations, but that gets stale quickly.
The long term durability and rather steep maintenance costs associated with air vs. coil would sway me towards choosing coil if I were to keep the car for more than 5 years. It is kind of neat that it's another featured option on the touchscreen with correlating animations, but that gets stale quickly.
jeepn30
Member
It was really something I didn't care either way. My cpo happened to have air suspension. One thing I do notice is that when I drove 6 people around (2 kids in rear facing seats, 1 kid in back seat, and 3 adults), the ride was really smooth and steady, more so than just myself in the car.
DIL
Member
Funny how we picked up exactly where we left off after a long hiatus. Post #27 by @lolachampcar is from Dec 2013. Fast forward almost exactly 3 years to Post #28 and here we are debating the same thing. That's okay, it's a good topic.
Although I'm not an owner yet, I have test driven enough variations to say that the coils would be my choice. I can confirm that the air suspension is "floaty." Some may like that wafting feeling, but if you have any desire for a sporty ride, where you feel in control and the steering feels tight, direct, and balanced, coils are the way to go. I would even argue that 21's with coils offer a superior balance of ride comfort and handling, IF you're interested in that extra little bit of dynamic performance.
Although I'm not an owner yet, I have test driven enough variations to say that the coils would be my choice. I can confirm that the air suspension is "floaty." Some may like that wafting feeling, but if you have any desire for a sporty ride, where you feel in control and the steering feels tight, direct, and balanced, coils are the way to go. I would even argue that 21's with coils offer a superior balance of ride comfort and handling, IF you're interested in that extra little bit of dynamic performance.
Alright I will contribute to this ancient thread. I debated this heavily when buying my CPO and in the end decided to prioritize other options over air/coil. I ended up with coil and 19" tires on a 2013 and I love the ride.
I am currently in a 2013 loaner with air and 19s, and I notice it's weirdly stiffer and floatier at the same time. Its stiffer at lower speeds, but with some crosswind at highway speeds, the car felt very loose and like it was floating.
So I am pleased with my coils and will probably stick to that choice from now on. I havent had any issues bottoming out and the ride is nice and solid.
I am currently in a 2013 loaner with air and 19s, and I notice it's weirdly stiffer and floatier at the same time. Its stiffer at lower speeds, but with some crosswind at highway speeds, the car felt very loose and like it was floating.
So I am pleased with my coils and will probably stick to that choice from now on. I havent had any issues bottoming out and the ride is nice and solid.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
You can throw another wrinkle in here if you want. If discussing Ds, do you have the stiffer or softer dampers? I got an early production P85D with the stiffer (sport although Tesla never made a distinction) dampers. Even with the air springs, my car has a nice solid ride similar to my old M5. I'm a happy camper.
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