Design center now shows 75D

[Uncle Paul]

I believe Tesla has done a good job of introducing this 75 KW battery.

Those that ordered the 70's will get exactly what they ordered. No problem here.

The option to upgrade to the full 75 Kw. capacity have the new opportunity to do so.

Those who think it is worth the price can upgrade. Those who do not think it is worth it can save the money.

Only people that will get upset will be those wanting something for nothing (or cheaper).

The total refresh is a great deal for those that pre-ordered. They are getting more than they had bargained for.

 

[JeffK]

it's about upgrading the cells to a new version.

You can't really say that unless you know for a fact it's really a new version of the cell and not just less empties. This could be done simply to match the Model X battery configuration to make production easier by having one less config. To me this seems infinitely more likely.

Also for your theory to be correct they would have had to sell every new version of the battery at a loss which is not probable.

Selling the 75 on the 70 trim should be making production easier, therefore cheaper especially if it's the same number of cells and 100% of the new cells use some new chemistry/process. If people want the really extra 5 kWh they can pay enough so Tesla can make some cash towards Model 3. The probability people are going to pay $3000 for 5kWh is low but might encourage people to jump to the 90kWh pack with higher voltage. If you're already going to spend a little then what's a little more.

It wouldn't make economical sense to keep selling the 75 as a 70 at a loss if few people are actually going to upgrade. Since Tesla also plans to increase margins from 25 to 30% your theory doesn't work and the 75 kWh pack probably costs what the 70 did to manufacture.

 

[ITSELE]

Tesla is brilliant! Don't forget the additional profit they get on the other end after you trade in or return your lease. These "70 kWh" cars magically ALL become 75 kWh cars on the CPO website. Your car isn't worth as much as it's only a "70 kWh" battery so they give you less on your trade in and get a little more on the CPO. They do this for all of their software enabled options! I dare you to find a non supercharger enabled S60 or an S40 on the website. Also, try to find a P90D that doesn't have the Ludicrous Speed Upgrade! There are none for perviously owned and all of the new ones listed have Ludicrous. They now have a 72 Amp Charger that all cars will have as well (too early for those cars).

 

[techmaven]

Also for your theory to be correct they would have had to sell every new version of the battery at a loss which is not probable.

Why do you think that is the case? They make less margin selling the 75's as 70's, not no margin. Clearly before, the 90 kWh version is a bumped up cell revision with silicon in the anode. The 70's share the same cell chemistry as the 60's and the 85's. It only makes sense that the 75's are the same pack configuration as the 70's but with the newer silicon in the anode cells, the same as the 90's as the plants in Japan produce more of the newer cells. Likely the newer cells cost more money to Tesla, but Tesla is charging a lot more money to customers (18%). Still, the point is that one isn't buying more cells, one is buying newer revision cells for the entire pack.

 

[JeffK]

Why do you think that is the case?

Once you retool your equipment to make a new battery type why would you ever make the old one again?
It's true that they might make less margin, but by how much exactly? Not even close to $3000. Cost per kW is going down, the goal is to make batteries with higher capacity at lower cost.

Look at it this way.
Let's say 70 kWh was $190/kWh = $13,300 let's say the cost goes down to $180
$180/kWh * 75 kW = $13,500 so you'd lose $200 from your margins if nobody buys the $3000 software upgrade.
When the cost goes under $177/kWh you break even.
These are very high estimates. GM says their batteries are $145/kWh and says it will probably drop to $100/kWh by 2021 with economies of scale.
Tesla's price/kW is a closely guarded trade secret but I bet anything it's the same or cheaper to produce a new 75kWh battery than it was to produce a 70kWh battery one year ago.

 

[BluestarE3]

Doesn't this thread belong more in the Model S subforum? Model 3 battery specs and pricing aren't known yet.

 

[nexsuperne101]

If the extra 5KWh gets another 19 miles, then that works out at 263 watts per mile. Over the whole 75KWh battery, it could/should do 318 miles.
Does that sound like a realistic figure? I know that if I drive the Nissan Leaf gently, I can get over 4miles/KW (<250 watts/mile), but the S is a heavier beast.
Personally I wouldn't need the extra 19 miles. 299 miles would be easily enough to get around the UK superchargers.

 

[JeffK]

Doesn't this thread belong more in the Model S subforum?

Perhaps, but I'm saying this whole thing is a Model 3 funding effort.

 

[tsla007]

Bluestar-no, this is just data to get an idea of what the costs vs expense to customers for mdl 3.
I was just using it as a starting point since the battery is quite recent in to new body style model S.
The question those prices raised is what would the increments of model 3 battery most likely be?
15kw/10kw/20kw? And at what prices to the consumer? It seems tesla wants a premium-way above premium price for the battery.
I'm a little scared what the next level of model 3 battery pack will increase the price.
Again, just using the raw data and not really commenting on S-just the battery. Yes, the battery is in a S model but that's all we have to go on right now.

 

[tsla007]

@JeffK- Need to be careful between the difference between raw battery kw and built battery pack kw.
I'm sure GF is well below GM price point. We are talking about the full battery pack cost per kw not just the cells.
It is this reason that I think the increments to next level battery should be more reasonable. It's the same battery pack
with more cells in it. Most of the labor is the same. It seems that tesla is overcharging customers for larger battery packs.
These are just my thoughts. Don't get me wrong-I want tesla to make money and be financially sound. I just fear that the price
points of the different battery packs will be so drastic that I won't be able to get the next level battery above the entry level.

10 yrs from now Tesla should be able to lower the battery cost big time. I know they are going through massive expansion.
Yes, I will support that because I want them to be around for decades to come. I'm just on a limited budget of 45k for the car plus fees.

 

[Luke42]

A pedantic note to the people on this thread about the difference between kilowatts (KW) and and kilowatt-hours (KWh).

KW is a measure of instantaneous power, like horsepower. KW is determines the maximum acceleration of the vehicle. 1HP is roughly 0.75KW.

KWh is a bucket of energy, like gallons of gasoline, and is proportional to the range of the vehicle. A kilowatt-hour is the quantity of energy used if you run a one kilowatt device (like a hair dryer) for one hour.

An EV battery has meaningful measurements in both KWh and KW. For example, increasing KW makes the car go faster (eg the Ludicrous mode upgrade) and KWh makes the car go farther (eg an upgrade 70KWh to 75KWh).

Sorry for being a high school physics pedant, but I find the discussion very confusing when half of what's written on the page is a discussion about upgrading the car from ~53HP (70KW) to ~56HP (75KW). The actual upgrade is from 70KWh to 75KWh, which increases the range of the car by ~7%. This is an important distinction for EV enthusiasts.

 

[JeffK]

Luke42 that assumes no increase in Voltage. With Tesla historically the larger packs also have increased voltage not just more cells in parallel.

With the same motor pulling 1500 Amps the one with the higher voltage sends more kW to the motor. I have not idea if the upgrade allows access to increased voltage in addition to the greater capacity.

 

[cab]

Here in middle America (aka supercharger wasteland), I just couldn't consider the old Model S 60, and the 70 was iffy...75, however, could be just enough range to be doable in the "entry level" car. In short, compelling for certain use cases.

 

[brianman]

Do you know that for sure? While I understand why it's logical, I'm just wondering if we know that's how it works. Obviously it can be verified once there are 75 kwh packs in the wild for people to measure voltages and compare a fully charged 70 to a fully charged 75.

While we're on the subject...

I wonder how the supercharger rate and tapering compare for the "original 70" vs. the "new 70(75)".

 

[brianman]

Also, try to find a P90D that doesn't have the Ludicrous Speed Upgrade! There are none for perviously owned and all of the new ones listed have Ludicrous.

For the CPO, I don't believe the Ludicrous part of this assertion to be true in general (i.e. it might be the case at some point in time, but it's not 'by design'). It's different from the rest of your examples because it requires hardware changes. As for your "challenge", i don't see any P90D CPOs listed (w or w/o Ludicrous) at the moment.

For new, generally they backstock "top end" vehicles when "building for inventory/demo". Kind of unrelated to the point you were trying to make (IMO).

 

[smsprague]

Wonder if Tesla will drop the 90D. The 75D has almost the same range as the original 85. This would create more separation for the P models which presumably have higher margins.

 

[TexasEV]

Wonder if Tesla will drop the 90D. The 75D has almost the same range as the original 85. This would create more separation for the P models which presumably have higher margins.

No, people buy the 90D for range and the P for showing off that they have the fastest car. Two different types of buyers.

 

[Super_Popular]

The P is funner to drive than a non P. It's too bad that it's $20K more.

 

[Smarty McFly]

Confirmed 70Ds currently in production can software unlock to 75KWh via email from Tesla today:

 

[ITSELE]

For the CPO, I don't believe the Ludicrous part of this assertion to be true in general (i.e. it might be the case at some point in time, but it's not 'by design'). It's different from the rest of your examples because it requires hardware changes. As for your "challenge", i don't see any P90D CPOs listed (w or w/o Ludicrous) at the moment.

For new, generally they backstock "top end" vehicles when "building for inventory/demo". Kind of unrelated to the point you were trying to make (IMO).

Brian, If you just browse the CPO's new & pre-owned you see P90D's listed, but if you click on the actual car for options you will see they all have Ludicrous...every single one of them. I went back and checked to be sure.

It seems all P90D's are hardware equipped with Ludicrous, it is simply a $10,000 software switch to enable it. P85D's require the special fuse to be installed. Someone please chime in and back me up on this. Wait, they already did. Inside EV's did too.