Did the Model 3 kill the Model S and the Model X and Tesla with them?

[Az_Rael]

Oh please Tesla do not go to the dealership model. This one of the facets of Tesla that I really like. I do know how to haggle for price on a car, but I hate it! I want to buy a car similar to when I buy groceries or similar... see price tag, pay that price. No gimmicks or tricks.

Tesla is already moving that way. During the last quarter rush if you paid MSRP, you were apparently a schmuck as Tesla was offering significant discounts to people if you asked the right questions. This fellow managed to snag a Model 3 performance inventory car with only 9 miles on it for $7700 off. Prices Paid, Discounts, Incentives, and Upgrades Offered

 

[Darren Donovan]

Galve2000 - I think you are on to something.

With the Model 3 you get 85% of of the Model S for 50% of the price.
There just aren't that many people willing to extra for S. It's a no-brainer for most people.

Additionally, there a lots of people who bought a Tesla as a status symbol. (not everyone, but there a lot)
And with the Model 3 now, owning a Tesla doesn't carry that same status, they are everywhere on the roads now.
Those buyers that were looking for a car as a status symbol will look elsewhere now.

While I always hear the argument on how Tesla's goal was not to make money, but rather save the planet, I wonder if that still holds true.
Tesla is a publicly owned company, who's primary obligation is to its shareholders.
What do you think the shareholders goals are? Money.

So yeah, I do think is possible the Model 3 being priced so low and with such slim margins could have negative side effects.

When the goal of the CEO is to save the planet (just ramp up production at the expense of QC to get cars to customers' hand as soon as possible, more EVs on the road,.....), but the shareholders' goal is to make money (needs better QC so company doesn't lose money with the service centers inundated with problem cars, bad PR,.......)there will be a time when those 2 have to be reconciled. It might be very soon.

 

[MrG_NY]

A couple of things I see as a potential buyer.

If a sales representative is at an event for EVs and takes you for a drive and takes all your contact info and says I will email you. Do it!

Customer service needs to be on the ball. Answer emails and calls, that keeps customers. Keep the customer in the loop.

Price fluctuations are going to happen, Tesla is selling a product and anyone in sales knows you have to adjust sometimes.

Tesla without Elon is Apple without Steve. If the board removes him the vision is gone. Think of Apple in the 90’s and look at it after his death.

What the company needs is someone to come in and clean up customer relations, get shipping ironed out and streamline the process.

Pricing structure is not bad, the lease payments are a bit high for the price of a M3 compared to other cars in the same price and class.

 

[TMThree]

Yes, Tesla is doomed*. Check out this chart:

US Plug In EV Sales 2012 - Present


*If we're living in opposite world, where being wildly successful is considered doomed.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Yeah, I have thoughts. Musk had NO right and NO reason to boast of a $35K Model 3 so far in advance, before Tesla had an opportunity to complete the design of the car, battery pack, and especially the assembly line. There was no need - Musk set inappropriate expectations and then was consumed by them. The Model 3 NEVER needed to be a $35K car before tax incentives. It could have been a well-optioned $50K car (like it typically is anyway). That way, it would not have competed as much with the Model S/X, and Tesla could have drifted down the base price over the following few years after initial demand was met, after the manufacturing costs were established, and after the Model S re-design (so as to not cannibalize Model S/X sales as much as it has).

Well he raised $400,000,000 in 0% interest finance.
What he should have done was promise it and not deliver it. A few broken hearts is worth a strong Tesla.

 

[Bridor]

Two years ago, my lifelong dream came true when I took an all-electric car on a road trip from coast to coast. Even today, Tesla is the only electric car maker that makes this possible comfortably. I own three Telsas and am looking forward to winning the lottery so that I can own a Tesla Roadster someday. I will probably buy the Model Y when it comes out. Yes, there are growing pains, but I love, love this company and I love Elon Musk for making my dreams come true. I have sacrificed to the hilt to own these vehicles, but they are still the greatest vehicles on the road today. I feel so lucky to live in this day and age where I own this type of car. I am jealous of the rising generation. I only have about 20 more years left to live... I can't wait to see what happens next.

Brent

 

[jeffro01]

So many issue to address... Many of which have already been pointed out. For me it's the near complete abandonment of the early adopters, especially those that came even before myself. The S/X are supposed to be the flagship models but EVERYTHING is about the Model 3... EVERYTHING... It's so completely ass backwards... To top it off, the constant lies and deception by employees is staggering. I'll save my story as it's posted in other places but I was once an enthusiastic supporter who told everyone to buy a Tesla... Now, I highly discourage anyone buying one and my current Model X may be my last one period. If Tesla ever gets any real competition, it's game over...

Pissing off your existing customer base is NOT a good way to do business but it's clearly the status quo at Tesla these days. Apple needs to just buy Tesla and Elon needs to go. Elon, while so instrumental in getting Tesla going, is now it's biggest weakness and greatest threat. Between the constant lies regarding AP/EAP/FSD to the constant pricing boondoggles that seem to keep coming, he's either completely overwhelmed or just doesn't care anymore. Neither of which are good things...

As I'll keep saying, Tesla's new slogan should be: Great cars, corrupt and incompetent company.

Jeff

 

[P85_DA]

The S/X are supposed to be the flagship models but EVERYTHING is about the Model 3... EVERYTHIN

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one thinking this lol

 

[Brando]

Galve2000 - I think you are on to something.

With the Model 3 you get 85% of of the Model S for 50% of the price.
There just aren't that many people willing to extra for S. It's a no-brainer for most people.

Additionally, there a lots of people who bought a Tesla as a status symbol. (not everyone, but there a lot)
And with the Model 3 now, owning a Tesla doesn't carry that same status, they are everywhere on the roads now.
Those buyers that were looking for a car as a status symbol will look elsewhere now.

While I always hear the argument on how Tesla's goal was not to make money, but rather save the planet, I wonder if that still holds true.
Tesla is a publicly owned company, who's primary obligation is to its shareholders.
What do you think the shareholders goals are? Money.

So yeah, I do think is possible the Model 3 being priced so low and with such slim margins could have negative side effects.

Tesla CFO said (Q1 earnings call) only 3.5% Model S as trade-ins. Bigger more expensive cars are a seperate market niche IMHO.

 

[re04586]

Tesla CFO said (Q1 earnings call) only 3.5% Model S as trade-ins. Bigger more expensive cars are a seperate market niche IMHO.

It’s true that bigger cars could be placed into a separate market of buyers, but when those buyers put the M3 and MS side by side, they are willing to move out of that market when they see a car for half the price. There’s just too much value in the M3 pricing.

Imagine a customer walking into a Tesla store today, they are looking for a large car for his family of 4. The MS matches the customer’s needs perfectly, but what happens if they realize he could have two M3’s fo the same price? One for them and their spouse? My guess is many would be willing to move out of that large car market if it meant that kind of savings.

MS sales have fallen dramatically since the M3 came out, that is not a coincidence.

 

[sandpiper]

It’s true that bigger cars could be placed into a separate market of buyers, but when those buyers put the M3 and MS side by side, they are willing to move out of that market when they see a car for half the price. There’s just too much value in the M3 pricing.

Imagine a customer walking into a Tesla store today, they are looking for a large car for his family of 4. The MS matches the customer’s needs perfectly, but what happens if they realize he could have two M3’s fo the same price? One for them and their spouse? My guess is many would be willing to move out of that large car market if it meant that kind of savings.

MS sales have fallen dramatically since the M3 came out, that is not a coincidence.

I predict that they sales of the S/X will have come back at least to 80% for Q2. The price drops will have made a significant difference.

 

[AustinPowers]

You are not alone. I much prefer the S over the 3 any day. Better interior, more space, MUCH bettor looking exterior. Quicker .Etc etc

Not wanting to take this too far off-topic, but this just goes to show how different people are when it comes to preferences.
I don't know a single person who would rather have an S over a 3 at the moment. Especially the interior is far superior in the 3 imho. Much sleeker design, far more useful features, and - at least to people of my build - more interior room. I always felt cramped in the Model S, especially due to the abysmal headroom in the back. Everything felt tight and much smaller than what one would expect from a car this large. Total opposite on the 3, which to me feels much roomier even though it is smaller from the outside. Headroom is much better and legroom is comparable. Only in terms of cargo volume does the S dwarf the 3. Yet for most people, and at least all of those I know, the interior as well as storage space in the 3 is more than ample. Add to that the much better value for money, and the decision becomes a no-brainer.

Look at the numbers in Germany. Model S and X registrations are down dramatically.
Over the last five years, less than 8K Model S have been registered in Germany. It took the Model 3 just three months to achieve about half that number.

Finally, I think the REAL reason Tesla isn’t being adopted by the masses is...FEAR ! Folks I talk to every day tell me they’re freaked out by self-driving cars! They state they would NEVER want one. I explain - and show them with my app - all the benefits and cool tech. They remain apathetic. This single issue isn’t properly understood by Tesla.

I can only second that. No one I talk to wants self driving cars.
Perhaps it's also a German thing to be fearful of/sceptical about new tech in general, but even when I show them summon or give them a demonstration of Autopilot they just say it's a nice gag but nothing more. And I have to admit, Autopilot at the moment for me just doesn't work that great anyway. Too many dangerous situations on German Autobahns where I switch off AP because it doesn't react the way such a system should.

 

[Galve2000]

and - at least to people of my build - more interior room.

It's a holiday weekend here in the States and i've been spending some time with family. this has given me the rare opportunity to sit in the back of my Model S while my sister and her husband take the front. how someone call call the 3 interior more spacious than the S.. particularly considering the S's interior rear space... is beyond me.

we must be talking about different cars.

I also think the interior of the 3 looks cheap... even compared to the S.. but my car is AP1 with real leather and alcantara accents throughout. perhaps the 2018-2019 builds with the same vegan "leather" as the 3 lose this advantage. we all know the game plan is for the interior of the S and the 3 to merge at some point (unfortunately IMO)

 

[Brando]

Don't you just hate it when companies improve their products?
Can you imagine the 3 actually better than the S?
Why doesn't Tesla just learn from GM how to market products with ads vs all that engineering/design improving products?
And finally people are realizing they don't really want/need big cars.
The 3 will take all S sales - except maybe rich people who can afford to buy whatever they want.
This isn't rocket science.

Some stock trader looking at historical data -
Data Proving Tesla's Success

 

[MrG_NY]

I had an appointment to test drive the M3 the other day. Let’s just say I will most likely be getting one in a few months. I like the lines of the S but it is a bit dated at this point. It will be refreshed just like any other car brand does. So to that point I don’t think the M3 killed the S or X, these vehicles fit a separate segment.

The M3 is modern, roomy and a good bang for the buck. It may not be for everybody. It has plenty of room in the back seat, which is what I was looking for. A good sized trunk. Handles well, and the tech is the icing on the cake.

The S is a more up scale vehicle, can haul more stuff, but dated. The ride with air suspension is great, power is great. Wait and see what thhe update brings, I think we will be surprised.

 

[Galve2000]

Don't you just hate it when companies improve their products?

But that’s Exactly the point.. the model S has not been improved. It should have been given the new battery cells BEFORE the release of the 3... or at least before the full backlog of (roughly) 350,000+ M3 orders was delivered.

They are charging flagship prices for the S when the 3 is in fact their “flagship” car these days.

And I don’t mean “halo” cars... if you want ludicrous mode or whatever you have to buy our top-of-the-like offering and pay an extra $30,000 of on top of that to be able to go 0-60 in 3 seconds.. or whatever it is Luda cars can do.

The notion that the 3 would somehow get this “ludicrous” performance aspect, which you occasionally saw sprinkled throughout this forum prior to the 3’s release, was just wishful thinking. (Thankfully)

 

[svp6]

Seems like a lot of upset people on this thread. I had a P85D (my car), now on our second 3 (my wife's car, switched to P3D- from RWD due to better handling in snow). Here are my thoughts - in part similar to what others have said.
1. No question in my mind that P85D was the better, more luxurious car.
2. We got the 3 for my wife for 2 reasons: she simply would not consider a 6 figure car under any circumstances ("cars are just for transport"); we also could not justify the price difference for the S - at that time, P100D started at ~130k if I remember correctly.
3. So what do I get in a year when my lease expires on the Merc E coupe? I thought Taycan would be nice - put a deposit down. The longer I wait, the less enthusiastic I am. Latest news have the "over 300 mile) range on the NDEC cycle, which translates to perhaps 250 miles EPA. For me that is a no go - it will not allow my winter travel to Minneapolis without charging (~190 miles total). The Audi e-tron, Merc ECQ, and Jaguar iPace are all in the same category (besides I do not like SUVs in the first place).

The more I think about it, the more likely I am to get a new model S. The price now on the model S long range with all options is 99.5k today. I am expecting the interior refresh - people keep saying it will be second part of this year or early next year. 370 miles of range completely kills range problems even in the most adverse weather.

My prediction is model S and X will come back to the ~100,000 car sales per year soon - all at the expense of the high-end German and Japanese competitors.

 

[Brando]

Lexus LC 500 owner buys a Tesla ?
There Is Tesla, And Then There Are Automotive Dinosaurs | CleanTechnica

Porsche 911 Fanatics, Volvo Fanatics, Lexus & Ford Mustang Fanatics Become Tesla Model 3 & Model S Fanatics | CleanTechnica

Perhaps Tesla can soon meet world demand for Model S/X - Merc Dealers might take on deliveries?
Skyrocketing Tesla Sales Force Mercedes Dealer In Norway To Face A Kodak Moment | CleanTechnica

Tesla could "pay" delivery charges to Merc dealers. Setup a fixed fee? Crazy idea. So this is what disruption looks like?

 

[henderrj]

We considered trading our s in for a 3 long range, and then a 3 performance. I have friends with both and I've driven them both. We kept the s. The cannibalization of the sales of the s from the three is a reality, but probably only half of it. We all remember the Osborne effect. Without doubt that's causing a lot. So, will Tesla get back about half the sales volume with a refreshed S? think so. As to the X, it'll lose some to the Y for sure. Same exact idea.

 

[re04586]

We considered trading our s in for a 3 long range, and then a 3 performance. I have friends with both and I've driven them both. We kept the s. The cannibalization of the sales of the s from the three is a reality, but probably only half of it. We all remember the Osborne effect. Without doubt that's causing a lot. So, will Tesla get back about half the sales volume with a refreshed S? think so. As to the X, it'll lose some to the Y for sure. Same exact idea.

I actually think the Y is far more likely to cut into the sales of the 3 and S rather than the X. It’s a lot closer to those 2 cars in functionality than the X.

The X still stands out with its size, true 3rd row seating (have you see the Y’s 3rd row pics?), and the FWD - as polarizing as they are.