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Discussion: All Season Vs Summer Tires

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And in the test I quoted the difference in wet and dry braking was big - like 10%, and that was only from about 50mph. The difference would likely be greater from higher speeds
Please tell us how worse braking is a compromise worth making?
 
And in the test I quoted the difference in wet and dry braking was big - like 10%.


Yes- the one you quoted was about different tires that don't actually come OEM on performance Teslas (in fact what you quoted doesn't even NAME THE TIRES they tested-- just the brand of tire)

The PS4s was the primary summer tire for most of the existence of the Model 3. And the one specifically mentioned as people had switched to the A/S4s.

And the braking is a big improvement on the all-season in wet.... like 10% (well 9)


Please tell us how worse braking is a compromise worth making?

Agreed-- the all-seasons perform better at braking averaging wet and dry in this case AND save a bunch of money AND they're much safer if it gets cold out too :)


Also- Please tell us how refusing to admit your claim there's no evidence all seasons can ever beat summers in non-snow was debunked is helping you look any less desperate to save face rather than admit being caught being wrong yet again?
 
Yes- the one you quoted was about different tires that don't actually come OEM on performance Teslas (in fact what you quoted doesn't even NAME THE TIRES they tested-- just the brand of tire)

The PS4s was the primary summer tire for most of the existence of the Model 3. And the one specifically mentioned as people had switched to the A/S4s.

And the braking is a big improvement on the all-season in wet.... like 10% (well 9)




Agreed-- the all-seasons perform better at braking averaging wet and dry in this case AND save a bunch of money AND they're much safer if it gets cold out too :)


Also- Please tell us how refusing to admit your claim there's no evidence all seasons can ever beat summers in non-snow was debunked is helping you look any less desperate to save face rather than admit being caught being wrong yet again?
The entire context of that test shows a clear performance advantage for the PS4S, ironically. But keep digging!
 
The entire context of that test shows a clear performance advantage for the PS4S, ironically. But keep digging!



YOU:
NO TEST SHOWS AN ALL SEASON EVER WINNING BESIDES SNOW.

ME:
Here's one that does. Will you admit you were wrong?

YOU:
The context shows the all season doesn't win ALL the time so I won't admit anything!!!!!


ACTUAL example of a test result from that test:

wetbrake.png


I ain't the one digging my dude.

Further the AMOUNT the all season wins in wet braking is 4.5 times larger than the amount it loses in dry.


SPEAKING OF YOU DIGGING DEEPER THOUGH-
I find it hilarious you're jumping up and down saying "performance" differences nobody will ever use in legal street driving are SUPER important, given some of your previous posts:

People can value whatever they want in cars.

I value usable performance, which for me means performance I can use in my day-to-day driving. A Hellcat would be of zero use to me, because I don't need to show off to anyone

and

If you'd like to dispute my assertion that your car and everyone else's in the US spends 99% of its time below 100 mph, you're gonna need documentation. Good luck with that.


But the REAL how deep is that hole now one?

Also claiming you skip all seasons because you REFUSE TO GIVE UP PERFORMANCE, but here you are 2 months ago telling us about the ALL SEASON tires you just swapped out for a different set of... ALL SEASON tires.

I also was able to get one brand of tires (Michelin Primacy AS) replaced with another brand (Hankook) in a warranty situation. Michelin's credit went to the tire store, and the tire store applied the credit to cover the purchase of the Hankook ION EVO AS tires I wanted as replacements.
 
On my wife’s SUV, which isn’t my car.

You just ranted (incorrectly) about how BRAKING IS ALWAYS WORSE on all seasons and will CAUSE YOU TO CRASH.

Then told us you put them on your wifes car.


Also you:
please be sure not to drive anywhere near me in case you can’t stop in time to avoid a $15K accident because you saved $700 on tires.


Do you tell your wife not to drive near you?


Literal LOL

Indeed!
 
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I think the choice of tires is very much related to where you live and how you drive your car. Personally, I'm very performance oriented, and I'm willing to give up tire mileage, ride comfort, and some stability for improved handling. When I lived in Southern California, for over 20 years I ran DOT R tires on my daily drivers, starting with Yoko A001R to A008R, Goodrich Comp T/A R, Yoko A032, Toyo R888R, Michelin Sport Cup, and a few others. It was necessary to be a bit careful when it occasionally rained, but other than that, and having to replace the tires in 10k miles or less in some cases, and often being somewhat noisy, they were great! Of course, I always had an SUV or truck with All Terrain tires for going out to the desert, offloading, or going anywhere it snowed.

Since I moved to Colorado over a decade ago, I had to totally change my tire selections. Even for my cars that only get driven on nice days in the summer, DOT R tires don't work. Often, the weather will be nice for half the day and then there will be thunderstorms, and many of these rain hard like what would typically only happen in SoCal once o twice a year. After a couple of scary trips where I could barely keep the car going straight at 30 to 40 MPH, I had to give up on them. I've found the Toyo R1Rs to be a pretty good compromise; they're very resistant to hydroplaning and still have a fair portion of the grip and feel of a DOT R tire. But I only run the R1Rs on my play car, not the daily driver.

For the first 5 or 6 years here, I did the summer/winter tire thing, typically PS4S and Sottozero 3. The problem with that is that during winter, it's not uncommon to have snow and temperatures in the 50s or 60s on the same day, and over the course of a week, it's typical for most of the winter to see these kind of variable conditions. We can get significant snowfall as late as May, one year early June😲, and as early as October in the fall. Getting stuck somewhere with snow coming down and PS4S tires on the car is not pleasant. You just pray that you can keep the tire temps up and that a solid layer of snow/ice doesn't accumulate on the ground, because if it does, you're probably not making it home. On the other side of things, if you have the performance winter tires on, and it's a beautiful 60+ degree day out in December, and you decide to have some fun on a curvy road, it does very bad things to your tires, and they overheat and the fun comes to an end from a driving perspective as well.

So, I've tried a number of different all seasons over the years, and the better ones are dramatically better than all seaons of the past. The all season tires Tesla puts on the Model 3 at the factory are poor to fair overall. It's easy to find much better performing all seasons. There's also a big difference between all season tires, and the newer all weather tires. I've tried Michelin Cross Climate 2s and General AW365 tires in the all weather category, and they actually handled any weather thrown at them quite well. Even in snow and ice, there wasn't much of a difference between them and performance winter tires with regard to traction. There was a difference, but it was small to negligible. They also rode nicely and the Generals were extremely quiet. The problem with the all weather tires is the steering response and feel; it was pretty poor with both tires, unlike any performance tire, whether summer, all season, or winter. So, for the last couple of sets of tires that I picked up for our Model 3s, I decided to go with ultra high performance all season tires.

I've tried the Conti DWS06+, the Michelin All Season 4s, and Vredstein Hypertracs. Honestly, all three tires are very good, and the differences are fairly small between them. The Contis and the Michelins are so close together in almost every regard, that I'd just buy whichever is cheaper. The Vredsteins are a little bit different; they are noticeably better on snow and ice, and they give up a teeny bit in the dry. I'd also say that the Vredsteins are a little quieter than the other two, although I wouldn't consider any of them noisy. Compared to a top notch summer tire like the PS4S, they're down a bit on traction in the dry, call it 10%, but unlike the summer tires, they'll still get you around in ice and snow. There's a pretty big drop in snow and ice traction for these three tires compared to the all weather or winter tires, but in all but the worst conditions they'll get you home with a bit of careful driving. Also, all three of them are better in ice and snow than the average all season tire. Summer tires are terrible to somewhat terrifying even in small amounts of ice and snow. As soon as there's a layer on the ground that prevents the tire from contacting tarmac, they're nearly useless, and if they get too cold, they turn into rocks.

I think what I'd really like would be a performance all weather tire. Something that keeps the traction in all conditions of the current all weather tires, but has the steering response and feel of a performance tire.

Sorry about the length of the post, but I'm pretty passionate about tires. :)
 
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I think the choice of tires is very much related to where you live and how you drive your car. Personally, I'm very performance oriented, and I'm willing to give up tire mileage, ride comfort, and some stability for improved handling.

I live in central Maryland. Being retired I never have to drive my Model 3 in snow or ice. And, if something changed and I did have to drive in snow or ice I'd drive my wife's ICE mini van.

I'm probably a year away from needing tires, but I'm seriously interested in the Hankook summer tires. My number one objective is to get a quiet tire.
 
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Hey guys I’m new here. So, what tires should I put on my car?
Well you should never compromise on performance ever. So you need to keep at least 4 sets of wheels and tires and be willing to swap them as weather conditions change.

Bright sunny day in the summer - Run Pilot Cups or similar
Rain in the summer- Run UHP Summer tires
Cool Fall Day with a little bit of rain - Run UHP Summer tires in the day time, high performance winter tires at night
Dry day in winter - Run high performance winter tires
Snow / Ice - Run studded winter tires

And remember, never ever run all season tires because they're too much of a compromise for a family sedan.
 
I think the choice of tires is very much related to where you live and how you drive your car. Personally, I'm very performance oriented, and I'm willing to give up tire mileage, ride comfort, and some stability for improved handling. When I lived in Southern California, for over 20 years I ran DOT R tires on my daily drivers, starting with Yoko A001R to A008R, Goodrich Comp T/A R, Yoko A032, Toyo R888R, Michelin Sport Cup, and a few others. It was necessary to be a bit careful when it occasionally rained, but other than that, and having to replace the tires in 10k miles or less in some cases, and often being somewhat noisy, they were great! Of course, I always had an SUV or truck with All Terrain tires for going out to the desert, offloading, or going anywhere it snowed.

Since I moved to Colorado over a decade ago, I had to totally change my tire selections. Even for my cars that only get driven on nice days in the summer, DOT R tires don't work. Often, the weather will be nice for half the day and then there will be thunderstorms, and many of these rain hard like what would typically only happen in SoCal once o twice a year. After a couple of scary trips where I could barely keep the car going straight at 30 to 40 MPH, I had to give up on them. I've found the Toyo R1Rs to be a pretty good compromise; they're very resistant to hydroplaning and still have a fair portion of the grip and feel of a DOT R tire. But I only run the R1Rs on my play car, not the daily driver.

For the first 5 or 6 years here, I did the summer/winter tire thing, typically PS4S and Sottozero 3. The problem with that is that during winter, it's not uncommon to have snow and temperatures in the 50s or 60s on the same day, and over the course of a week, it's typical for most of the winter to see these kind of variable conditions. We can get significant snowfall as late as May, one year early June😲, and as early as October in the fall. Getting stuck somewhere with snow coming down and PS4S tires on the car is not pleasant. You just pray that you can keep the tire temps up and that a solid layer of snow/ice doesn't accumulate on the ground, because if it does, you're probably not making it home. On the other side of things, if you have the performance winter tires on, and it's a beautiful 60+ degree day out in December, and you decide to have some fun on a curvy road, it does very bad things to your tires, and they overheat and the fun comes to an end from a driving perspective as well.

So, I've tried a number of different all seasons over the years, and the better ones are dramatically better than all seaons of the past. The all season tires Tesla puts on the Model 3 at the factory are poor to fair overall. It's easy to find much better performing all seasons. There's also a big difference between all season tires, and the newer all weather tires. I've tried Michelin Cross Climate 2s and General AW365 tires in the all weather category, and they actually handled any weather thrown at them quite well. Even in snow and ice, there wasn't much of a difference between them and performance winter tires with regard to traction. There was a difference, but it was small to negligible. They also rode nicely and the Generals were extremely quiet. The problem with the all weather tires is the steering response and feel; it was pretty poor with both tires, unlike any performance tire, whether summer, all season, or winter. So, for the last couple of sets of tires that I picked up for our Model 3s, I decided to go with ultra high performance all season tires.

I've tried the Conti DWS06+, the Michelin All Season 4s, and Vredstein Hypertracs. Honestly, all three tires are very good, and the differences are fairly small between them. The Contis and the Michelins are so close together in almost every regard, that I'd just buy whichever is cheaper. The Vredsteins are a little bit different; they are noticeably better on snow and ice, and they give up a teeny bit in the dry. I'd also say that the Vredsteins are a little quieter than the other two, although I wouldn't consider any of them noisy. Compared to a top notch summer tire like the PS4S, they're down a bit on traction in the dry, call it 10%, but unlike the summer tires, they'll still get you around in ice and snow. There's a pretty big drop in snow and ice traction for these three tires compared to the all weather or winter tires, but in all but the worst conditions they'll get you home with a bit of careful driving. Also, all three of them are better in ice and snow than the average all season tire. Summer tires are terrible to somewhat terrifying even in small amounts of ice and snow. As soon as there's a layer on the ground that prevents the tire from contacting tarmac, they're nearly useless, and if they get too cold, they turn into rocks.

I think what I'd really like would be a performance all weather tire. Something that keeps the traction in all conditions of the current all weather tires, but has the steering response and feel of a performance tire.

Sorry about the length of the post, but I'm pretty passionate about tires. :)
Thank you for your well-written assessment based on experience with a range of different tires in different climate regions. 👏

-Danny
 
I used to do a lot of autoX and ran 200 tread wear tires year round including the snow. I was a starving collage student and couldn't afford a second set, plus I was in an apartment with no storage. Then I drove from PA to CA and hit an ice storm with 50% worn race tires because I was going to race out in CA. It was terrifying! My dad bought me some good all season tires for the drive home(Thanks dad).

Years latter that car got a full cage and did a ton of track days with 200 and full on slicks. Once you go to real race tires you never go back. I had some rock hard super narrow factory tires I would drive it to races on and boy was it fun to slide around with no grip and spin the tires on demand.

I want max grip at all times, but shouldn't drive fast enough on the streets to utilize all the grip. Sliding a little is fun too.

My best setup would be PS4s for most of the year and PS4AS for the rest. No real snow unless I go to the mountains to ski.

I'm going to Sonoma Raceway for a track day next month with (gasp) all season tires. They are not the best for the job, but I can manage the tires and stock brakes. It's going to be fun. I'm even running a street alignment.