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Discussion: Is Tesla's new PV+PW strategy influenced by Planned Utility NEM Changes?

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,939
565
auburn, ca
Question for this fine group: should the proposal pass and PG&E gets to charge electrical users $100 a month for the privilege of interconnecting, would it be more economical to simply turn off PG&E, add a third PW and a natural gas generator for those winter days?
I am not sure you could "turn off" PGE.
 
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iPlug

Member
Sep 14, 2019
566
814
Rocklin, CA
The amount of $$$ and land for enough solar PV and PWs to cover a once every 5 years worst case cloudy/storm system scenario to go off grid, then all the surplus energy that could not be fed back into the grid for the other 5x365-1 days should make anyone's head hurt.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,939
565
auburn, ca
I'm not aware of any current regulation requiring you to have PG&E service. Where I live there a lot of people that are off-grid because they don't want to pay to have the lines run.
I paid $20K to have 3 poles put in when I built my house.
Probably true, but for someone who has service now, just do not see how money wise would ever make sense to disconnect.
 
Mar 15, 2021
281
114
California
Personally, with the rapid decrease in solar and battery costs, yes I think it would be more economical to do what you propose than paying monster fees to PG&E.

This is counter to common sense where a centralized power grid should be more cost effective than a completely de-centralized energy ecosystem where every home is not interconnected with one another. Only in California could the fees and poorly run utilities (the ones who demand a fair profit in spite of their inefficiency) exist to the extent it's even remotely more economical to be permanently off-grid than on-grid.

I think the worst impact of all these changes will be felt by homes that don't have the ability to add enough solar. Some homes simply don't have a good roof/pane for all this, so those homeowners will need to continue paying out-of-control prices with no option to break completely away. I wish I could add another 4 kWp of solar... but alas :(
Are you allowed to go off grid? I can’t with SCE.
 
Mar 15, 2021
281
114
California
Interesting....So they can raise the price as high as the government will allow and the government will require you to pay it even if you don't want it or use it.
My city and location requires us to be connected to our local electrical (SCE), gas (SoCalGas), and trash/water/sewer (the city). If we fail to sign up with any of these within a given time of obtaining residency we would be fined. Failure to sign and pay the fine would result in a lien for an owner or eviction for a tenant.

We can’t install our own well; we have to use the city water supply. We have to pay for water service even if we don’t use water. We have to pay for trash service even if we never put out trash to be picked up. We have to pay electrical connection even if we never use electricity. We have to pay gas service even if we replaced all appliances with electrical ones and don’t use gas at all. We pay for the service fees for these things as part of the general taxes for the whole community.

The only areas in the city that don’t have to are the more rural areas that don’t have to be connected. But they pay 5 figure permit fees just to do their own things as a way to discourage them from doing so.
 
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holeydonut

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,125
1,508
East Bay NorCal
My city and location requires us to be connected to our local electrical (SCE), gas (SoCalGas), and trash/water/sewer (the city). If we fail to sign up with any of these within a given time of obtaining residency we would be fined. Failure to sign and pay the fine would result in a lien for an owner or eviction for a tenant.

We can’t install our own well; we have to use the city water supply. We have to pay for water service even if we don’t use water. We have to pay for trash service even if we never put out trash to be picked up. We have to pay electrical connection even if we never use electricity. We have to pay gas service even if we replaced all appliances with electrical ones and don’t use gas at all. We pay for the service fees for these things as part of the general taxes for the whole community.

The only areas in the city that don’t have to are the more rural areas that don’t have to be connected. But they pay 5 figure permit fees just to do their own things as a way to discourage them from doing so.

Huh so it is illegal in California for a normal residential dwelling to be completely off grid... it’s something called Title 24. It’s Section 110.10 of the Code.


Here’s an Interesting read for someone with more free time. I spend all my free time hating on PG&E.

 
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Southpasfan

Member
Jun 2, 2019
462
587
Pasadena
Batteries. And the end of private utilities. I have the system so I know how they works and live in LADWP territory so I know how a “utility” as another part of the government works. The problem here is too much capitalism. You can’t expect private, capitalist utilities to happily organize their own destruction.
The grid has an existential threat when solar plus batteries are less expensive than the grid. That’s the case in anywhere where electricity is over about $16 cents per kWh now!
That’s at current prices and where it’s sunny with a sufficient size and orientation. Prices for home systems are only going down.
It’s not for us on this thread to figure out but people in multi unit homes or offices need a grid. In ten years the challenge will be what to do with the residential midday solar. Check out Australia as they reach 20% home solar. There was an article in the Australian Guardian yesterday that you might have to pay to export electricity to the grid.
 

wwhitney

Member
Nov 2, 2017
968
1,320
Berkeley, CA
Huh so it is illegal in California for a normal residential dwelling to be completely off grid... it’s something called Title 24. It’s Section 110.10 of the Code.

Title 24 is all of the building codes in California. You need to specify the Part (which Code) before specifying the section. The article references Part 6 (Energy Code) Section 110.10, which you can read here:


Section 110.10 is "Mandatory Requirements for Solar Ready Buildings" I don't buy the analysis in the document you referenced. I read 110.10(c) as requiring a reserved pathway to a point of interconnection with an electrical service, rather than requiring the electrical service itself.

Cheers, Wayne
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,939
565
auburn, ca
Title 24 is all of the building codes in California. You need to specify the Part (which Code) before specifying the section. The article references Part 6 (Energy Code) Section 110.10, which you can read here:


Section 110.10 is "Mandatory Requirements for Solar Ready Buildings" I don't buy the analysis in the document you referenced. I read 110.10(c) as requiring a reserved pathway to a point of interconnection with an electrical service, rather than requiring the electrical service itself.

Cheers, Wayne
No matter what the codes are, there are very few folks I expect that are 100%!!!!!! off grid who are connected to, or can be connected to, utilities for basically free. The costs I have read are just nuts, unless your only choice was to pay for a bunch of power poles and transformers to reach a persons house.

I have no problem paying my "fair" share. But the say things like we are going to charge you 10 bucks a month per KW of solar just because it is one your house is nuts!!!! And we are only going to give you whole sale rate. Might as well consider taking the panels off?
 

Vines

Active Member
Jul 20, 2018
2,052
2,380
Silicon Valley, CA
It is required by some town and city ordinances to have electrical service to live in a dwelling. I know of 1 case where a home in the bay area went off grid right from the start.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

The homeowner had to do some serious oversizing (232 kWh!) to prove that the home would never use a generator as the primary power source, which I believe is also a requirement in Woodside.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,939
565
auburn, ca
It is required by some town and city ordinances to have electrical service to live in a dwelling. I know of 1 case where a home in the bay area went off grid right from the start.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

The homeowner had to do some serious oversizing (232 kWh!) to prove that the home would never use a generator as the primary power source, which I believe is also a requirement in Woodside.
I sure do not understand how he gets by during the winter. He may have lots of batteries, but am surprised the solar is so small. What am I missing?
 

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