Does dual motor make a big difference in terms of power, enjoyment, etc?

[holmgang]

Yes!!! All that fuss with little to show for it.

All go is not everything, all the time.

The sound is a part of the car experience and enjoyment. Same reason why people like manual transmissions, even if they're less fast or less efficient than automated ones. Or why people enjoy classic cars.

The Teslas can be sterile and anodyne.

Back to the original question, buyers should ask themselves how often they go WOT, and for how long. Personally, that's infrequently, and definitely never for long. I was more entranced by the idea of the Performance drivetrain, than the necessity of it. If someone swapped mine for a plain AWD I probably wouldn't notice. In a sunny climate, RWD would be the way for me

 

[TLLMRRJ]

AWD will probably hold value better over time, people will pay more for power and the LR RWD will be the “cheap used long range option”

Time will tell. Lots of people believe range is more important for resale than power for BEV’s. However, if you don’t want to lose a lot of value, don’t spend a lot. So the base SR may end being the depreciation winner.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

So 2 things-

1) I'm talking about trap SPEED, not time. Trap speed is an excellent proxy for power... the time is a measure of a potentially quite a few other factors.

2) The P for much of 2018 came standard with 18s, and the 20s only came if you added the upgrade package. Likewise in 2019 the P was often available as an inventory car with 18s or 19s.

(also Teslas don't have crank shafts, but that's getting into the weeds )

In reverse - I meant torque at the wheels, I think that phrase was literally muscle memory from 20 years of online "debates" on this kind of thing. Americans LOVE to talk about crank HP (because often American car companies give those figures) whereas European car makers give the figures KW or HP at the wheel. I'm European living in the US, so am easily confused. My bad.

I don't have any data on the breakdown of Performance cars and their wheel types, but I only said the videos I have seen have not had the same wheels on the car. If you have one that explicitly states they do, I'd love to see it. I would imagine globally that most of the P's were sold with 20" rims given that was the default after November 2018.

Of course I agree about trap speed (Vs 1/4 mile time) being closer. But, given the lack of gearing and the limited RPM of the motor, and, as you rightly said, the artificial nature of the power limit (including top speed) then it's really not surprising that the longer the run, the smaller the speed difference will be (up to the maximum speed of the AWD).

I am seeing P3D speeds of 115 - 118mph but AWD speeds of 112mph - 114mph for the 1/4 mile, but for the 1/8 miles it's 95 - 98mph Vs 91 - 93mph, which isn't close at all. Regardless, in both cases, the P is still pulling away.

 

[SSonnentag]

anodyne

Good one! I had to look that one up as I don't recall ever having run across that word before.

 

[Knightshade]

I am seeing P3D speeds of 115 - 118mph but AWD speeds of 112mph - 114mph for the 1/4 mile,

Not sure where you're looking- But P/AWD trap speeds have been MUCH closer than that the entire time both cars have existed... maybe you're looking at some P after-power-bump times vs AWD before bumps?

Here's one from 2018 before either power bump with a P and an AWD directly racing each other- 111.85 vs 113.32 trap speeds.. so about 1.5 mph difference not the 3-4 mph you suggest.

3D vs P3D 1/4 mile - at a track (not my video). The 3D is strong! : teslamotors

but for the 1/8 miles it's 95 - 98mph Vs 91 - 93mph, which isn't close at all. Regardless, in both cases, the P is still pulling away.

Again unsure where you're looking but I haven't seen 1/8 mile traps of 98 on a P...

Draggy leaderboards quickest 1/8 mile for a P is Jerin L in Florida doing 7.30 at... 96.32 mph.

Next best is the forums own FlyNavy01 at 7/[email protected]


The best P 1/4 times are tvb96 in Bucharest at [email protected] and MTSN in Denver [email protected]


Contrast with:

Tesla Model 3 does 0-60 mph in 3.48 seconds after Acceleration Boost upgrade

That's AWD with the boost unlock-

95.05 mph 1/8 mile and 116.79 1/4 mile

So off by about 1 mph in the 1/8th, and basically dead even after 1/4 mile... (right in between the top 2 P guys for trap speed in the 1/4)







And this bring us around to the original topic of the thread....

Does the 2nd motor make a big difference for power?

Yup.

The RWD trap speeds are MUCH lower....

Quickest RWD Model 3 I see at a glance in the 1/4 is from Jack_of_trades from AL, with a 13.36 at... 103.50

About 8 mph slower than the original AWD did before either 5% bump or the acceleration unlock... and over 13 mph slower than the AWD+ does today

 

[Wooloomooloo]

2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance

97.87mph for the 1/8th

2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance

118.23 mph for the 1/4

2019 Tesla Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor

Fastest Dual Motor on that site, Sept 2019 - 90mph and 112mph.

I think your numbers are probably more reliable than those (simply because they could have been very different conditions to one another) so I'll concede that. Also, I don't want to argue this into the ground, I've been driving performance cars (and trying to get performance out of crappy cars) for 30+ years and have found people will just argue and argue about very small margins (much smaller than we are). When it comes to cars, opinions matter more than numbers!

There is a measurable difference between the AWD and Performance, whether it matters to an individual or not is subjective. The P also got a performance boost and people have recorded sub 3 second 0-60 times, which is MUCH faster than 3.48 seconds and at no time does the AWD match the speed of the P, so it's always pulling away and the 1/4 times do reflect that overall.

Now if you're saying the AWD has all the hardware needed to match the P, it's just a line of code that prevents that, I can't argue with that as it seems to be true.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Biggest difference between RWD and AWD is the driving experience. The RWD feels lighter, has less understeer, and generally feels more nimble.
The AWD feels more in control, is more confident coming off corners and of course has the better traction if the roadway is not perfectly clean.

One is not better under most ownership, but the driving feel is certainly different under high levels of torque.

I like the way my AWD X pulls hard around corners, and launches effortly under full throttle.

Imagine the Model 3 RWD is more fun and the AWD more comfortable and secure.

 

[holmgang]

Americans LOVE to talk about crank HP (because often American car companies give those figures) whereas European car makers give the figures KW or HP at the wheel. I'm European living in the US, so am easily confused. My bad.

I'm not aware of anywhere where WHP is the prevailing figure. Only slight difference is sometimes between metric horsepower vs mechanical horsepower.

US standards like from SAE, vs UN, or even DIN, only differ in what sort of accessories are accounted for in the test standards. None include the transmission
I.e. I rarely ever see whp published or marketed

 

[raptor5244]

Biggest difference between RWD and AWD is the driving experience. The RWD feels lighter, has less understeer, and generally feels more nimble.
The AWD feels more in control, is more confident coming off corners and of course has the better traction if the roadway is not perfectly clean.

One is not better under most ownership, but the driving feel is certainly different under high levels of torque.

I like the way my AWD X pulls hard around corners, and launches effortly under full throttle.

Imagine the Model 3 RWD is more fun and the AWD more comfortable and secure.

I own an SR+ and M3P+. The SR+ definitely feels more toss-able. The M3P+ has a lot more grip and feels more planted but that 400lbs on the nose of the car is definitely noticeable.

 

[Kilotango74]

All go is not everything, all the time.

The sound is a part of the car experience and enjoyment. Same reason why people like manual transmissions, even if they're less fast or less efficient than automated ones. Or why people enjoy classic cars.

The Teslas can be sterile and anodyne.

Back to the original question, buyers should ask themselves how often they go WOT, and for how long. Personally, that's infrequently, and definitely never for long. I was more entranced by the idea of the Performance drivetrain, than the necessity of it. If someone swapped mine for a plain AWD I probably wouldn't notice. In a sunny climate, RWD would be the way for me

Well i respectfully agree to disagree with you. I’ve owned some (well what i thought at the time were) fast cars with some rip roaring exhaust and now when i see that i laugh. For all that sound you should be moving the earth, instead they are still building up RPM to get to that peak HP or torque level. Its a waste, draws attention( sometimes the wrong attention), and just seems so juvenile now. How often do i go WOT, alot!!!! But I don't have to worry about tires squealing, pitching sideways or any of that other nonsense. It just goes and i just grin.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

I'm not aware of anywhere where WHP is the prevailing figure. Only slight difference is sometimes between metric horsepower vs mechanical horsepower.

US standards like from SAE, vs UN, or even DIN, only differ in what sort of accessories are accounted for in the test standards. None include the transmission
I.e. I rarely ever see whp published or marketed

This comment is going to get me into trouble, but I meant this:

Golf R - marketing says 288hp. Stick it on a dyno, and WHP will be 288 or slightly higher (yes dynos vary, but stick with me here). Measured at the crank, given transmission loss of 17% or so, and it's well over 300hp.

Ford RS, marketing says 350hp. Stick it on a dyno and you find it's lower, and the 350hp headline is at the crank.

I'm out of date on hot hatches, so this may no longer be fair or accurate, but generally non-US cars have been known to understate HP by using Conservative WHP numbers and US makers think bigger numbers are better (given the tradition of muscle cars) and so state the highest number (which is from the crank).

But we're way off topic...

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Well i respectfully agree to disagree with you. I’ve owned some (well what i thought at the time were) fast cars with some rip roaring exhaust and now when i see that i laugh. For all that sound you should be moving the earth, instead they are still building up RPM to get to that peak HP or torque level. Its a waste, draws attention( sometimes the wrong attention), and just seems so juvenile now. How often do i go WOT, alot!!!! But I don't have to worry about tires squealing, pitching sideways or any of that other nonsense. It just goes and i just grin.

It's all subjective and there's no right or wrong, but I am with you here perhaps for a different reason. I've ALWAYS owned manual transmission cars (I learned to drive in the UK and automatics were pretty uncommon there when I was young) and the reason is I just hated the vagueness of automatic transmissions in accelerating, and more so in decelerating.

Even the beautiful Dual Clutch 'DSG' style gears you get in modern German cars, although much better, didn't do it for me. So when I got my Tesla, I assumed I'd miss my clutch and rev-matching.

So OK, occasionally I do miss it, but because of the electric motor, there's absolutely no vagueness when accelerating (the opposite!) and with the regen (especially AWD regen) you get a similar effect to downshifting without having to hit the brakes, and this is even more pronounced with track mode. Incidentally, given all the talk here about RWD/AWD/Performance - if you're interested in throwing your car around a track, then the P is by far the best option for track mode alone, regardless of the power differential.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I like the point of prior enjoyment of a manual transmission. It gave you a direct connection between the engine and the drive wheels.

The Tesla single speed direct drive provide this same immediate connection and control of the driving wheels, but does not need to transition through all those gears and up and down the power curve with every gear selection.

The Tesla provides exquisite control of torque applied to the drive wheels. The connection is pure and provide much better precision than ever could be achieved with manuals.

There was always the problem of multiple gear downshifting, and struggling to control the constantly varying slowing achieved. It was impossible to be precise with the clutch constantly trying to smooth out the retardation. Same with upshifts at speed out of corners. You were never in the perfect gear for torque application. To high a gear and you would bog out of the corner, while too low a gear would just spin you off the track.


Tesla's single speed direct drive provides amazing control both on the track and on the street. Perhaps will end up being the most satifying drive system of all.

 

[Knightshade]

I'm out of date on hot hatches, so this may no longer be fair or accurate, but generally non-US cars have been known to understate HP by using Conservative WHP numbers and US makers think bigger numbers are better (given the tradition of muscle cars) and so state the highest number (which is from the crank).

Same thing with how US makers generally include 1 foot rollout when they cite 0-60 specs, and the germans usually don't... hence US car mags when they test end up giving german cars a reputation for "sandbagging"


Then there's Tesla the only company dishonest enough to use BOTH measurements, just never for the same model, and to make the fact they're doing it as hard to discover as possible, to try and make the P look a little better than the non-P than it really is... (which brings this back to at least marginally on topic )

 

[holmgang]

I like the point of prior enjoyment of a manual transmission. It gave you a direct connection between the engine and the drive wheels.
...
The Tesla single speed direct drive provide this same immediate connection and control of the driving wheels, but does not need to transition through all those gears and up and down the power curve with every gear selection.
...
Tesla's single speed direct drive provides amazing control both on the track and on the street. Perhaps will end up being the most satifying drive system of all.

the point about the manual transmission is about the satisfaction of operating it, not about its effectiveness (shifting speed, parasitic losses, total lap speeds).

if it was about the latter, then automated-manuals are just as effective by virtue of having clutch couplings (vs fluid torque converter).

its about feeling the mechanical linkages; having to work 3 pedals with 2 feet; nailing the shifts. what this enjoyment isnt about, is trying to eliminate all shifts together

 

[iamnid]

Am I missing something? I see lots of talk about LR vs AWD. I was under the impression the LR RWD car was no longer for sale. As a result, isn't it moot to be discussing LR vs. AWD? Really, it comes down to SR, SR+, LR AWD, and Performance, since those are the only models available. I don't think OP is interested in getting a discontinued model.

And, if I may chime in, I also don't think that merging, or passing, or get the jump on others from a stop light should be a huge consideration. The SR+ is considerably faster off the line than almost every other car out there -- same goes for passing speed. If those are your concerns, you'll be fine with the SR+. If you can't rest easily unless you have the best, then I suppose Performance will be the way to go. For day to day driving, the SR+ is more than adequate. We have a SR+ currently. When the lease on MY car comes up in a year, I'll probably get the LR AWD but mostly for the range, the added quickness is just a bonus. I'd probably get the LR RWD if it was still available.

 

[Jenremoved]

And, if I may chime in, I also don't think that merging, or passing, or get the jump on others from a stop light should be a huge consideration. The SR+ is considerably faster off the line than almost every other car out there -- same goes for passing speed. If those are your concerns, you'll be fine with the SR+. If you can't rest easily unless you have the best, then I suppose Performance will be the way to go. For day to day driving, the SR+ is more than adequate. We have a SR+ currently. When the lease on MY car comes up in a year, I'll probably get the LR AWD but mostly for the range, the added quickness is just a bonus. I'd probably get the LR RWD if it was still available.

It’s all relative. The SR+ is reasonably quick and will perform adequately for most drivers. It’s a little slower than most “hot hatches” these days.

From my perspective, the AWD is just quick enough for me and the Performance was a no brainer because I could afford it. I use the M3P’s added speed in Bay Area traffic and the difference in speed compared to the SR+ is meaningful to me.

 

[Kilotango74]

I have owned a GTI, Audi S4, a full bolt on mustang and a full bolt on tuned BMW 135i.....today alone I gave 4 different people rides in the Performance Model 3 while at work, heck I even have a course to run now. Never, ever had this much fun with a car before.

 

[Knightshade]

Am I missing something? I see lots of talk about LR vs AWD. I was under the impression the LR RWD car was no longer for sale. As a result, isn't it moot to be discussing LR vs. AWD? Really, it comes down to SR, SR+, LR AWD, and Performance, since those are the only models available. I don't think OP is interested in getting a discontinued model.

Given the literal question they asked was about LR RWD vs LR AWD- yes I definitely think they were interested in that.

The SR+ is considerably faster off the line than almost every other car out there --

Not really.

5.3 0-60 is certainly respectable and will spank most minivans and suvs and econoboxes (though still not all of em)... but there's TONS of sport sedans, pony cars, hot hatches, and then actual sports cars out there it's definitely not "considerably faster" than

Contrast with the LR AWD that'll beat the vast majority of those (and nearly all of em with the 2k acceleration boost) (or the P3D- which if you can actually find one in the color/wheel you want is obviously the way to go over the LR AWD+)

 

[SaloonGoon]

I’ve driven all 3 (pun intended). My buddy has a SR+, and it’s a fun car to toss around. I did an overnight test drive of a LR AWD, and that’s the car that sold me on the M3. It was quick, felt solid, and gave me a true sense of what autopilot was really like. My P3D+ is ALL these things and quite a bit more, especially acceleration from a dig. If you can manage the P, BUY IT

For reference, my other fun car makes 714 rwhp, and I prefer to drive the Tesla