Driving in icy/snow condition

[Andyw2100]

...and this
http://jalopnik.com/lets-settle-the-winter-tires-vs-all-wheel-drive-debat-1462180324

That video was interesting. Thanks for sharing it.

I do have a set of snow tires/wheels for my Model S. I never really thought twice about not getting them.

The one thing I would have liked to see in the video, though, would be a similar comparison between snow tires and all-season tires. The video was dramatic as it was made, but I think most people deciding on whether or not to use snow tires are deciding between adding snows in addition to all-seasons rather than adding snows in addition to summer tires.

 

[vandacca]

In my experience, All Seasons are only mildly better than Summer tires in the 0ºC to 10ºC range. If you're in a region that gets proper winter conditions, All Seasons will perform very poorly. Some refer to them as "No Season" tires, since they're not great in any condition.

 

[t56301]

Road condition at the time (see attached).
If you look closer, there's one semi that's turned over on the side, and the other one was jackknifing blocking both lanes. Luckily the highway folks showed up - chained up the blocking semi and got it out of the way.

 

[t56301]

I have X P90D with Blizzak snow tires, the traction control and the ABS will come on and you can feel the pedal pulse just as with a typical car - even with snow tires. I'd highly recommend snow tires, remember that these are heavy cars even though they feel sporty and AWD will not help with stopping. Regarding handling in the snow and ice, there are some differences you need to be aware of with an X vs a typical AWD car or SUV that I have noted in the last 3 months in MN (I always try to find the limits in a controlled environment like an empty parking lot so I know how the car will behave on the road):

- Traction control is much better in an X, there is NO wheel slip. This can be a problem when pulling onto a road with traffic as you will get limited acceleration and no wheel spin. Sometimes you need wheel spin to clear the snow from the treads. There is a slip start button but needs to be manually engaged / pressed when needed - doing that is cumbersome as it is in the control panel.
- You can get the car to slide sideways if you try, and the front wheels will slide if you go into a corner too fast. Stability control does not seem to engage the brakes very early or at all to get you on the correct path. This is much different then other cars I've had in the winter.
- For decelerating / stopping, if regen is set to standard and any of the wheels start to slip on ice in one pedal driving, the regen may cut out almost completely and you will be coasting and have to quickly use the brake. For me, it is best practice in the winter to always be ready to use the brake / cover the brake when coming to a stop. There is no anti-lock feature in regen - remember regen may also be limited in the cold as shown on the dash.
- Find some snow and ice and try the ABS so you know what it feels like - to me it is the same as all other cars regarding pedal pulse / ability to stop and "feel". You really need to stomp on the brake and push all the way down hard once you feel the ABS pulse start to engage full brakes.

I think you hit some very good points, especially this:

You can get the car to slide sideways if you try, and the front wheels will slide if you go into a corner too fast. Stability control does not seem to engage the brakes very early or at all to get you on the correct path. This is much different then other cars I've had in the winter.

As I recall the chain of events/reactions was:

1. Semi in front of me slowing down. Note we were driving at around 20-25MPH, so maybe the semi was about 1-2 car in distance.
2. I lifted my foot off "gas" pedal and moved to the brake pedal (before I pressed on it)
3. The car was immediately skidding (this might be because of regen braking according to earlier posts in this thread). Note I had the regen set to low.
4. I pressed the brake pedal (or I should say tapping). To my previous ICE experience (ICE is equipped with traction control), if the car is skidding, hitting the brake moderately should still engage ABS. But no in this case from Tesla.
5. A little panic at this point. My natural response was to swerve to the right for the shoulder. Now the X was sliding sideways to the left.
6. When the X finally stopped sliding, it's almost perpendicular to the road way.

 

[t56301]

For people yelling "get your snow tires", sorry "shut up"
I have lived in some heavily snow places for years and I wasn't told to get my snow tires for my ICE cars before. If that's because it is a Tesla, that's ridiculous!

Now I live in a place that hardly ever snows. So having all season tires is very reasonable and cost effective.

I want people to equip with the right mindset and handling skill when encounter such situation in a Tesla (instead of being surprised, as there are still a lot of unknowns for us and for Tesla to learn from), especially for an one-off roadtrip situation.

 

[Dakkor]

I can't even believe people are asking if they should buy winter tires. I mean cmon it's the law here to have winter tire from December to March... If there is a chance of snow or ice where you live get winter tire period. If you can afford a 100k car, i'm pretty sure you can afford a set of winter tire.

 

[goneskiian]

For people yelling "get your snow tires", sorry "shut up"
I have lived in some heavily snow places for years and I wasn't told to get my snow tires for my ICE cars before. If that's because it is a Tesla, that's ridiculous!

Now I live in a place that hardly ever snows. So having all season tires is very reasonable and cost effective.

I want people to equip with the right mindset and handling skill when encounter such situation in a Tesla (instead of being surprised, as there are still a lot of unknowns for us and for Tesla to learn from), especially for an one-off roadtrip situation.

You should have been told to get snow tires for your ICE cars too. Seriously, physics doesn't care what kind of car it is.

If you're set on sticking with AS tires then get something like the Nokian WRG3 All Weather tire which is a year round worthy tire that is also rated for winter use.

Nokian WRG3 SUV - Winter Tires / Nokian Tires

 

[idoco]

For people yelling "get your snow tires", sorry "shut up"
I have lived in some heavily snow places for years and I wasn't told to get my snow tires for my ICE cars before. If that's because it is a Tesla, that's ridiculous!

Umm...no...not because it's a Tesla. I've had several rear wheel drive BMW's that demonstrate the point. For instance my Z3 couldn't even get out of my level driveway if there was a half inch of snow and non-snow tires. But with snow tires that same vehicle would climb hills in snow that AWD vehicles without snow tires were stuck.

So...it is all about the tires....

 

[Plugsuvohio]

With the 2-wheel-drive Tesla, it's rather important to select low regen. Going downhill on an icy road is dicy under full regen. It does seem to have traction control, but it's not nearly as precise so the back end starts feeling really "loose" when you back all the way off the throttle. I've occasionally used the other foot to apply brakes while the throttle is still down, but the car complains about that.

My X was in the SC when my first huge snowstorm hit. I had an S loaner with 30K miles and single motor. It SUCKS. Rear end was all over the place. Same issue with heavy rain wet asphalt too. How can anyone use this ? I was scared to take it out again because of this. After I got my X back a week later, it was an entirely different story. Dual motor 90D and very good response in the snow, All season factory tires with 5000 miles on them.

 

[Roger_wilco]

I have never used an awd car, but always changing all four on my ICEs every winter/summer. I dont rely on these all season whatever tires, just make it right and buy a winter set. There will always be situations where even high experience needs a bit of chance/support.
We dont have all-snow roads here within city, but winter tires provide great and true safety feeling when you are driving on wet asphalt. They worth very well all the money and efforts to swap and care.
After reading all messages here, I dont understand how Tesla engineers cannot deal with snowy road conditions while having all the necessary sw and hw available in car. Car's AI computer is a perfectly suited piece of hardware for such realtime fine tuning of traction. I even expect Tesla to realise black ice on road and warn me. I am sure it can detect it with combo use of camera and traction feedback. I believe car is theoretically capable to adjust itself to varying wheel qualities and capabilities, after having some training miles in them.

 

[Shawn Snider]

Dont pass judgement until you acquire a set of Winter Tires. I imagine your X would cut through it and feel amazing!

 

[t56301]

Sure, if you drive in snow regularly, for safety, snow tire is the way to go.

However, my original point is if you occasionally drive in snow, with all season tires, comparing to the typical AWD ICEs with all season tires, Tesla isn't doing any better if not worse (and to my experience, it is right out scary and unsafe). I have driven in the same condition as the picture I posted earlier, and I have confidence in my previous car when driving it in that condition. For my X, I just don't have the same feeling after this. Maybe it is due to how this EV should be handled differently in the snow (I will have to test it out in an empty icy parking lot as some suggested).

 

[Doug_G]

Traction control is useless if you don't have the right tires.

My usual car is a P85 RWD with Michelin X-Ice3 tires. I'm currently driving a P85D AWD loaner with Michelin all season tires (what we call "no seasons" around here). I've had the loaner for a week and have driven through a wide variety of winter conditions. I have ice racing experience so I have a pretty good feel for how cars handle on snow and ice. My observations:

Acceleration: AWD with all seasons is better than RWD with snows.

Turning: AWD with all seasons seriously sucks on snow; it understeers horribly. On dry or wet pavement it actually turns noticeably better than my RWD.

Braking: All seasons are definitely worse than snows. AWD doesn't help!

Commentary: I have more confidence in my RWD with snows than an AWD with all seasons. That said I'd really love an AWD with proper snow tires.

 

[vandacca]

Sure, if you drive in snow regularly, for safety, snow tire is the way to go.

However, my original point is if you occasionally drive in snow, with all season tires, comparing to the typical AWD ICEs with all season tires, Tesla isn't doing any better if not worse (and to my experience, it is right out scary and unsafe). I have driven in the same condition as the picture I posted earlier, and I have confidence in my previous car when driving it in that condition. For my X, I just don't have the same feeling after this. Maybe it is due to how this EV should be handled differently in the snow (I will have to test it out in an empty icy parking lot as some suggested).

Here is a video (starting at 2:40) showing how Snow Tires are better than Summer Tires in wet conditions below 7ºC.

 

[goneskiian]

Sure, if you drive in snow regularly, for safety, snow tire is the way to go.

However, my original point is if you occasionally drive in snow, with all season tires, comparing to the typical AWD ICEs with all season tires, Tesla isn't doing any better if not worse (and to my experience, it is right out scary and unsafe). I have driven in the same condition as the picture I posted earlier, and I have confidence in my previous car when driving it in that condition. For my X, I just don't have the same feeling after this. Maybe it is due to how this EV should be handled differently in the snow (I will have to test it out in an empty icy parking lot as some suggested).

It's not the fact that it's an EV. Please stop saying that. You don't know how your old ICE would have handled those exact conditions because you weren't driving your old ICE that day.

About the only difference it could have been, is the fact that Tesla steering may not be quite as communicative as what you're used to in your old car and you didn't feel yourself slipping like you would have. It's not an EV thing though, it's just how they implemented the steering system.

 

[dmd2005]

A set of winter tires is an excuse to get another set of wheels in my opinion...I like changing the look of my vehicles with different sets of wheels/tires.

If you have icy conditions, snow tires aren't going to fare better than all season or summer tires. You will need studded winter tires to stop on ice.

Winter tires work in snow by collecting and trapping snow in the thousands of soft rubber sipes. I know many people are thinking why would winter tires work by clogging up the tires with snow? One would think that clear treads and sipes that are free of snow would add more traction, but clear treads and sipes do not add more traction in snow and slush.

Ask yourself this question. What sticks best to snow?

The answer is snow sticks best to snow. Think about packing snow together to make a snowball or to make a snowman. Snow sticks best to more snow when compressed under the weight of a winter tire with snow in the tread and sipes.

I've run all-season tires and dozens of winter tires through the Sea To Sky Highway and the Coquihalla Highway...also known as the "Highway Thru Hell" in the fall and winter. I would not be caught without proper tires and after this Arctic blast and ice around our poorly cleared streets this winter, I am going to get my first set of studded winter tires this year or the following winter depending when I pick up my MX. I have already ordered 2 sets of TST 20" TSportline wheels before I take a delivery of my MX. One set of wheels ordered with Pirelli Sottozero winters and I am thinking of studded Nokian Hakka 8's for the second set. I swap my own wheels on all my vehicles, so changing between sets is not a problem for me.

Watch Bjorn's video about Nokian studded winter tires on his Model S P85 going uphill. Any set of winter tires without studs will struggle on ice. All weather tires are a good compromise if you don't want 2 sets of wheels like the Nokian WRG3...not as good as a true winter tire but softer and better traction than a all season tire.

 

[goneskiian]

Great points about what works best on ice.

I will add that my use of the WRG3 is for exactly what the OP is looking for. An all condition tire that can handle the occasional snow. I will only use it a few times a year when I head into the mountains for some snow fun. The rest of the time it will be carrying me around the Puget Sound on wet pavement. Although, with our current temperatures ice is possible.

 

[Birdcar]

Great points about what works best on ice.

I will add that my use of the WRG3 is for exactly what the OP is looking for. An all condition tire that can handle the occasional snow. I will only use it a few times a year when I head into the mountains for some snow fun. The rest of the time it will be carrying me around the Puget Sound on wet pavement. Although, with our current temperatures ice is possible.

Do you replace the continental all season tire with WRG3 ? is WRG3 a good replacement for all year driving ? I do not like the idea of changing tires back and forth.

 

[dmd2005]

WRG3 can be run all year round. Half the tire is winter siped for ice and snow and the otjer half is all season type of tread. Low rolling resistance rated for the WRG3 as well, so a good replacement for 19" tires. A good tire if you don't do too much snowy weather driving and the tire is good for wet roads.

 

[goneskiian]

Do you replace the continental all season tire with WRG3 ? is WRG3 a good replacement for all year driving ? I do not like the idea of changing tires back and forth.

You could. Yes, it's fine for all year driving.