Electric Vehicle Jobs

[nwdiver]

Don't need work for income in this country. We have welfare and medicaid - no work requirement.

Lots of people trying to change that for some idiotic reason;

Medicaid Work Requirements in Nine States Could Cause 600,000 to 800,000 Adults to Lose Medicaid Coverage

Glad to hear that you have enough sense to agree there should be no work requirement for medicaid or welfare. Do you think those payouts should be below the poverty level? Seems like the economy would be helped if those consumers had more purchasing power.

If 1 person can produce for 1000 we kinda need those 999 people to have an income higher than poverty wages because math. It is possible to have a society where only a fraction of the population is able to purchase anything... but it's definitely not a society I have any interest in living in even if I am one of the few remaining with purchasing power.

Only a matter of time; Not very much time from the looks of it.

 

[juliusa]

Relax. The sky is not falling. Socialism does not work.

 

[nwdiver]

Relax. The sky is not falling. Socialism does not work.

Who's talking about socialism? I'm not suggesting workers seize the means of production. My all means... keep production in the control of private citizens. If a populist government got their hands on factories the first thing they would do is throw out the robots so their voters could have jobs. That would be idiotic.

Requiring people to work for money, requiring money to purchase goods and having no work for most people to do... also... also won't work because math.

How about this as a litmus test; Point to point fully autonomous shipping. If AI reaches the point that we're able to regularly ship material from one warehouse to another hundreds of miles away with almost no human input would you agree it's time to implement a UBI? That's ~15M jobs in the US alone.

 

[juliusa]

There will always be new jobs. The sky is not falling. Let's try to get to the point where we everyone gets 6 weeks vacation and a 4-day work week.

Looks like Joe Biden will be president - he is creating 1,000,000 new jobs just with his EV plan.

 

[nwdiver]

There will always be new jobs.

No doubt... and machines will do them...

I'd love to hear what magical job you think only humans can do AND will be abundant enough to absorb ~15M truckers.

Let's try to get to the point where we everyone gets 6 weeks vacation and a 4-day work week.

Looks like Joe Biden will be president - he is creating 1,000,000 new jobs just with his EV plan.

So you're in favor defining full time as 32 hours/week and mandating 6 weeks of vacation?

~950,000 of those jobs will be taken by machines So technically not a lie.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Lots of people trying to change that for some idiotic reason;

Medicaid Work Requirements in Nine States Could Cause 600,000 to 800,000 Adults to Lose Medicaid Coverage

It's not so much the policy itself that's the problem, but the motivation that leads to poor implementation. It's pretty much always a focus on cost reduction, rather than seeking improvements in peoples lives that result in cost reduction.

Glad to hear that you have enough sense to agree there should be no work requirement for medicaid or welfare. Do you think those payouts should be below the poverty level? Seems like the economy would be helped if those consumers had more purchasing power.

If 1 person can produce for 1000 we kinda need those 999 people to have an income higher than poverty wages because math. It is possible to have a society where only a fraction of the population is able to purchase anything... but it's definitely not a society I have any interest in living in even if I am one of the few remaining with purchasing power.

Only a matter of time; Not very much time from the looks of it.

Well, it could be a matter of time. The wealth generated by increased productivity has to go _somewhere_.

UBI is an attempt to overcome the problem of excessive aggregation of wealth caused by automation.
I think it suffers from a naivete of the motivated, like Socialism and Libertarianism. Proponents tend to be self-motivated.

Largely, people have a survival instinct, but beyond that are just happy to get by.

People need a push. UBI isn't pushy enough. For the motivated, no problem, let them get on with whatever they want. For the rest, unmotivated doesn't mean lazy or stupid. There's a big list of skills society needs. Push people and you'll end up with more skills and society becomes wealthier.

The only problem with pushy is that it's more expensive than not pushy.

 

[nwdiver]

People need a push. UBI isn't pushy enough.

Push to do what? The primary objective of a UBI is to ensure people have the ability to buy stuff so we have consumer demand. You think people need motivation to go shopping?

The path we're on is going to lead us to a future where we basically have two classes of people. The investor class and the 'working' class. Except there will be almost no work to do. If you own enough shares of AMZN you can use your dividends to buy from AMZN and the cycle continues for you. If you don't... well life sucks for you.

You could have automated factories that are perfectly able to provide for 100% of the population but only provides for the 20% that are investor class because they're the only ones with purchasing power. So ~80% of the population will be in poverty... because. I'd rather avoid that dystopia, or Ayn Rand fantasy land depending on your perspective.

I mean... I guess that over enough time maybe the working class will slowly die off and ~everyone will be an investor?

 

[juliusa]

I'd love to hear what magical job you think only humans can do AND will be abundant enough to absorb ~15M truckers.

3.5M, of which 1M will be making EVs. We'll find something for the others to do.

America Keeps on Truckin’

 

[nwdiver]

3.5M, of which 1M will be making EVs. We'll find something for the others to do.

America Keeps on Truckin’

The ~15M is transportation in general. Didn't mean just truckers.

~95% of those EV jobs will be filled by machines not humans

Still waiting to hear what magic job I'm overlooking that can't be automated....

 

[juliusa]

Still waiting to hear what magic job I'm overlooking that can't be automated....

The ones you have not imagined yet.

You are saying the same things people have been saying for decades - that there will be no jobs due to automation. Seems the more we have machines do, the more jobs there are.

Come back when only one spouse has a paying job, the working spouse gets 8 weeks of vacation and works a 30-hour week, and there are not enough jobs to go around. That should cover losing about half of all jobs.

 

[nwdiver]

The ones you have not imagined yet.

You are saying the same things people have been saying for decades - that there will be no jobs due to automation. Seems the more we have machines do, the more jobs there are.

Come back when only one spouse has a paying job, the working spouse gets 8 weeks of vacation and works a 30-hour week, and there are not enough jobs to go around. That should cover losing about half of all jobs.

Imagine some... what can a human do that a robot eventually can't? I'm drawing a blank....

Yeah... and they're slowing coming to pass. Jet packs? Orbital Rockets that land? Next it massive job displacement by automation. Is that really you're 'logic' path? 'It hasn't happened in the past therefore it won't happen in the future.' Say that out loud. Yeah... it's idiotic.

..... seriously.... in a mirror if you have to.

'It hasn't happened in the past therefore it won't happen in the future'​

I mean... isn't... isn't that true for everything at some point??? We didn't fly... until we did... We didn't land on the moon... until we did. We didn't have machines that could do ~everything a human could do but better, cheaper and faster.... until we did....

If we get to the point that only one spouse is working on average it's already too late unless employment ticks up. Have you learned nothing from Climate Change and COVID? Don't... don't you think there's some value in addressing a problem BEFORE it becomes a crisis?

 

[juliusa]

..... seriously.... in a mirror if you have to.

'It hasn't happened in the past therefore it won't happen in the future'

I'm saying the opposite. It has happened throughout history. As productivity increases there are new things invented to do.

It is being proven every single day as automation progresses. Unemployment and poverty at record lows, wages increasing. Life is good.

 

[juliusa]

Here is the quote from Joe Biden on 1,000,000 auto industry jobs:

Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden on Thursday night touted his plans to energize electric vehicle manufacturing during a town hall event televised on ABC.

While talking about environmental policy, the former vice president said electric vehicle efforts will save "billions of gallons of oil" and help create 1 million auto industry jobs.

Joe Biden on electric vehicles: 'We're not investing'

 

[nwdiver]

I'm saying the opposite. It has happened throughout history. As productivity increases there are new things invented to do.

It is being proven every single day as automation progresses. Unemployment and poverty at record lows, wages increasing. Life is good.

And we flew higher and higher yet never reached the moon... until rockets.

Unemployment and poverty at record lows.... until we have machines that know how to do ~any thing a human can do. Machine learning capable of just understanding speech has only been around for <15 years. Only a matter of time.

Here is the quote from Joe Biden on 1,000,000 auto industry jobs:

~950,000 of which will be filled by robots Just hope they don't start demanding the right to vote.

If corporations are people....

 

[juliusa]

And we flew higher and higher yet never reached the moon... until rockets.

Good example of something not imagined 100 years ago.

Unemployment and poverty at record lows.... until we have (blah blah blah)

So you agree everything is fine then. When we BEGIN to have whatever you think is going to happen, we will have decades to make whatever adjustments are necessary. Remind me again how many unemployed truck drivers there are today. Remind me again how many fully autonomous vehicles are on the road today.

The sky is not falling. Really.

 

[nwdiver]

So you agree everything is fine then. When we BEGIN to have whatever you think is going to happen, we will have decades to make whatever adjustments are necessary.

Given that wealth disparity is already beginning to cause problems and manufacturing job losses is giving rise to autocrats I would not define the current state of things as 'fine'. We probably need to implement a $1k/mo UBI now and plan to grow it incrementally.

Climate change wasn't causing any problems in 1980 but it would have been a lot easier to start addressing it then. Generally a bad idea to ignore problems until they become un-ignorable... that seems to be the plan of ~40% of the country.....

So.... when do we start regulating FSD? How many years do you think we have?

Good example of something not imagined 100 years ago.

And... as mentioned previously. New jobs DID NOT absorb most workers displaced from agriculture. It was more of EXISTING jobs. So the idea that unimaginable jobs will save the day is pure fantasy.

Any new technology will almost certainly employ even fewer people and likely result in a further net job LOSS not gain. Amazon does 2x the business of Wal-Mart with 50% fewer workers.

 

[juliusa]

Whatever. No shortage of work for decades to come. Decades. UBI can be implemented in a month. No big deal.

Any new technology will almost certainly employ even fewer people and likely result in a further net job LOSS not gain. Amazon does 2x the business of Wal-Mart with 50% fewer workers.

Seems to be working just fine. Unemployment at historic low levels. Increased productivity is a good thing.

 

[nwdiver]

Whatever. No shortage of work for decades to come. Decades. UBI can be implemented in a month. No big deal.

Really? So we got the stimulus re-up passed that was so desperately needed? I must have missed that...

Coal country would disagree with your assessment that there's no work shortage. So would the rust belt. Only going to get worse. Even the Carrier plant Trump was so proud of that kept manufacturing in the US... replaced a lot of its workers with automation.

'Yes, Mr. Hayes said, the company would invest in the Carrier facility, as it had promised Mr. Trump. But those funds were earmarked for automation, and would ultimately mean fewer jobs in Indianapolis, not more.'​

 

[juliusa]

Really? So we got the stimulus re-up passed that was so desperately needed? I must have missed that...

Yes!! You didn't get your check?

I think FOUR Covid stimulus bills have been signed into law so far, in well less than a year.

When necessary, even our divided government has shown over and over again they will act.

Coal country would disagree with your assessment that there's no work shortage. So would the rust belt.

No shortage of jobs for people to do. Of course there will always be some displacement during transitions, but with unemployment below 5% and a record number of Americans employed there is no shortage of jobs.

 

[nwdiver]

Yes!! You didn't get your check?

Got one months ago... still waiting on the second. Ideology is hard to overcome...

A second round of stimulus checks could take weeks or months to arrive as Democrats and Republicans remain at odds over the details of another trillion-dollar stimulus bill

with unemployment below 5% and a record number of Americans employed there is no shortage of jobs.

Neither of those are true. Unemployment is 7.9% and for the 2nd time labor force participation is the more important number. Even that doesn't tell the whole story as many of those are increasingly low quality jobs. I read about one amazon job where you wear a bracket that vibrates so a computer can tell you what to pick up. Computers are using humans as tools now until they're able to build a robotic arm with the same dexterity as a human arm. I give it ~3 years before that nut is cracked. I'm sure 50,000 amazon pickers can use their imagination to find a job. Maybe they can use that for dinner too like the lost boys did.