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Elon Musk AMA on Reddit about BFR plans

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Grendal

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Jan 31, 2012
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So here is a link to Elon's answers. You can click on the "context" link below the answer to get the question that was asked. I'm sure someone will post an article or something to put all of this in a more user friendly manner at some point in the future. Elon was definitely in a mood answering these questions.

overview for ElonMusk

Lots of clarification about the Raptor engines and other useful details.
 
Just read through the unedited AMA, which was took some time but was worth it. Thanks for the link to the easier to review version. :)

Definitely lots of interesting stuff! Was particularly intrigued to read the planned test sequence for E2E BFR flights: first test flights will be BFS only and only a few "hundred kilometers" vertical and horizontal, than later orbital test flights with minimal payload so "boost stage" (as Elon called it, meaning first stage) won't be needed.

Also interested in reading the response to question about keeping BFS fuel tanks cold during Mars transit period and how the nose of the BFS will be kept pointed sunward to minimize thermal gain in the tank section of the ship.

And the PICA-X heatshield will be attached directly to the BFR tank walls to avoid extra mass from "box in a box" construction.
 
Just read through the unedited AMA, which was took some time but was worth it. Thanks for the link to the easier to review version. :)

Definitely lots of interesting stuff! Was particularly intrigued to read the planned test sequence for E2E BFR flights: first test flights will be BFS only and only a few "hundred kilometers" vertical and horizontal, than later orbital test flights with minimal payload so "boost stage" (as Elon called it, meaning first stage) won't be needed.

Also interested in reading the response to question about keeping BFS fuel tanks cold during Mars transit period and how the nose of the BFS will be kept pointed sunward to minimize thermal gain in the tank section of the ship.

And the PICA-X heatshield will be attached directly to the BFR tank walls to avoid extra mass from "box in a box" construction.

Yes. Those some of the more interesting clarifications and addition to what we knew. The Raptor details were interesting too. They won't be using the same size Raptor as they are testing and they toned the output of the Raptor down to avoid issues. With F9 Spacex was willing and worked toward pushing the engine to its limits. With Raptor SpaceX is considering safety and longevity. The company wants the engine to fire thousands of times, not just a few hundred. I'm sure after time the company will adjust the engine to improve every aspect of it as they have done for the Merlin. Real world use, and lots of it, will show every weakness and flaw the engine has.
 
Something that popped in my head that our resident economists and political scientists out there can answer. If there is a sizable colony that is formed on Mars, what kind of economy will it have? Will people have salaries? What kind of government will be formed?

This will be an amazing social, economic and political experiment for sure.
 
But before that, we have bigger decisions to be made: are we going to kill the natives, or makes them as slaves, or put them in zoos? or combination of all three? I heard their skin makes lovely hand bags. Is that true? Martian meat could be a delicacy in China.

And then of course we could always provide special status in our constitution to protect the few natives who may have escaped the culling. A casino on a reservation should fix it.
 
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Something that popped in my head that our resident economists and political scientists out there can answer. If there is a sizable colony that is formed on Mars, what kind of economy will it have? Will people have salaries? What kind of government will be formed?

This will be an amazing social, economic and political experiment for sure.
Be careful of posting popping in head stuff. I have only light guesses so far:
  • Government:
  1. I believe political autonomy is the only way to fully realize redundancy, otherwise there would be way too many synchronized shared risks with Earth.
  2. But, that might not even bubble to the top first, if the people of Mars are not in a completely oppressive governance when they arrive in numbers; if they have any type of self determination in the beginning of critical mass of people, they'll quickly tire of paying attention to anyone else at all, meaning Earth; people in general with a sufficient level of competence naturally are worse off when being oppressed. In either case, they can create their own governance. I can't guess precisely what that would be, but it would probably be a mixture of smart modern futuristic ideas and crappy communist ones that are from the various spies that worm their way onto Mars somehow. I also believe the spies will continue to be the source of evil and wars there as here.
  3. Thank god that Oil will not be the primary motivator on that planet, given that we are in a new age of people that aren't completely worshiping the Oil gods. But, they'll have other chemical dependencies to consider: air, water, things that allow farming, things that allow construction, things that allow energy, and rocket fuel if they ever want to do Earth trade (which we are preliminarily assuming they'll initially want to do), so some material companies on Mars may yet cause trouble.
  4. Then, there is the possibility that despite oppression, people there may have the need to overcome their oppression, as they have occasionally tried to do on Earth in some places. This could be another source of governance.
What is most certain about governance is that the better the governance, the longer that version will last, each time.​
  • Economy:
  1. Bitcoin.
  2. Blockchain chained barter.
  3. Accounting for responsibility is usually not done much in economy. However, accounting for power, control, and material organization usually are done in economy. I'm guessing that as soon as the first fat person is born or immigrates, or the first hoarder, or some material gets in too small supply, or someone wants to spur lazy people into working in some sort of regularized useful way, economy will be absolutely required, since it will be needed to balance out the inadequacies. They will probably try all sorts of things, from copying existing systems to creating new ones.
  4. Every conceivable kind of currency, current and future.
  5. Sources of accounting will be somewhat tied to the various governance and ownership structures.

    Because money is a story that the people believe in, the stories that are told on Mars will have a lot of sway. They will tend to be adventurous, demanding, particular about necessity, and optimistic, as well as prudent and conservative. Beyond those trends, they will also be able to copy those stories with the people on Earth in relation to how much communication with Earthlings they do of their respective stories; I cannot determine how much censorship will happen, so it's impossible to know how well those stories will communicate. It doesn't take much censorship to erase monetary stories (as evidenced by the outsized effect of FUD on our economies).
  • Social:
  1. Creative, optimistic, cooperative, determined, exhausted, etc. I think there's going to be a lot of social energy created from the intrigue of wanting to, doing, and planning the living in a terraforming phase of civil creation.
  2. There is a strong possibility that internationalism will infest the original colonies, with Babylonian problems, such as multiple languages, and the unacceptable levels of discord that is made possible by those who wish to sew it using the great tools of multiculturalism and multilingualism. However, if those problems are overcome, those items will eventually be made non-issues. That is, there will be one language, one culture, and no regard to other categories of persons (other than the necessary such as male, female, smart, dumb, young, and unhealthy). I only mention this possibility, since if internationalism takes hold, it will crap all over all the stories, experiences, and histories of the colony(ies). How fast the colony(ies) jettison the multicultural and multilingual crap will have a lot to do with how fast they jettison the evil that comes with it. In the meanwhile, we may read a lot of crap while they go through that process. Be forewarned: once they have solved that problem, the local Earthling internationalists will censor their newfound social function, and we Earthlings won't even know about it, or how good, great or mediocre it has become.
  3. If they have technical problems that don't allow everyone to live somewhat aligned with their respective body potentials (such as causing substantially premature death), there may be some temporary social distortions directly related to those particular technical issues.
I can only guess on the basis of what I've seen on and from Earth.

I'll use one issue as an example to see how complex this could be. One of the stupidest things I've ever seen from NASA is the concept that after working with coworkers all day long that the people would then want to be so near each other at the end of the day that they're practically making love at home too. After making this mistake in their experimental dome on Earth, they finally realized that having living quarters packed in like cockroaches was a bad way to organize highly intelligent long lived humans. But, I'm not confident that the original city planners for Mars colonies will realize this, and will instead make this mistake again. This is one example of a problem that Martians will have to overcome; how they overcome issues like that are random from the point of view of people guessing the future, since it could manifest in all sorts of ways when you put them way out there in complex systems of their own. For instance, the first person to force the issue of being further away from others could be the first person who needed to be away from others and was bold enough to do it, but it's hard to guess who that would be, and what sort of intellectual, physical, social and technical powers they'd have to achieve those means, and those particulars would in many ways determine the manifestations of their successes. However, averaged over larger numbers of time, space, and matter, some of these will turn into regularized patterns we'll understand better from our own experiences, but not exactly, due to the unique characteristics of the foreign place (Mars).

Another thing that will change out there is when they transform. For instance, I can imagine a society based upon caves will be ill-equipped to deal with free roaming children who can breath open atmosphere Martian air, and vice versa. Some other transformations should be easy. For instance, in the same example, I could easily see the cave dwellers embracing atmospheric existence readily. But, sometimes things are built in ways that aren't completely flexible, and need modification and/or rebuilding. Once again, I find that it has more to do with random historical nuances and less to do with anything we can guess.

Often factors are built more by the mistakes made than the successes; often, the successes are practically transparent and assumed. Of course, any transparent success that suddenly fails would create its own equations and interesting items.

One of the initial glories of Mars will be a plethora of interesting things. After that newness dies out, that could be a further issue to resolve, but a more boring one. However, I have confidence that that will be a long time in coming in the long term, if ever.
 
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I've studied early american colonial law and culture. The colony will spend its energy trying to stay alive and not really focused on political, social, or cultural ideas. Political will be likely top down (a leader and a bunch of independent clans). Decision making must be fast, agile, and independent. Social and cultural will develop on their own after the very basic needs of the colony are met and sustained. Maslow and more I'd wager.
 
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Something that popped in my head that our resident economists and political scientists out there can answer. If there is a sizable colony that is formed on Mars, what kind of economy will it have? Will people have salaries? What kind of government will be formed?

This will be an amazing social, economic and political experiment for sure.
The first question of course is if there will be a viable economy at all anytime within many decades.

I'm unaware of anything that can be produced on or near Mars that could be profitably traded with Earth to get all this going. It seems very unlikely that Earth will support a very expensive Martian colony for the decades needed to build up any kind of local Martian economy.

For that matter, it's still very unclear that Mars could ever be self sufficient even if initial development capital weren't an issue. Actually, it's unclear if humans could even colonize Mars for physiological reasons, e.g. low gravity.
 
For that matter, it's still very unclear that Mars could ever be self sufficient even if initial development capital weren't an issue. Actually, it's unclear if humans could even colonize Mars for physiological reasons, e.g. low gravity.
Yes, there is no way to know with certainty if either of those two challenges can be surmounted.So what? The value of the objective -- making human life multiplanetary and the benefits that come from that -- make the effort worthwhile.
 
Yes, there is no way to know with certainty if either of those two challenges can be surmounted.So what? The value of the objective -- making human life multiplanetary and the benefits that come from that -- make the effort worthwhile.
Well, generally when there are questions about if something is possible, people try experiments before committing. For example, it would be a whole lot cheaper and controllable to put an artificial gravity station in LEO and try raising a colony of mice/dogs/primates there than sending a bunch of humans to Mars and see what happens. I see no plans for doing anything of the kind however.

Then there's the economic issues. Embarking on a very expensive project with no idea whatsoever about how it could at least break even isn't courageous, it's foolhardy. And yet, there has been no even semi-serious discussion of how the finances for a Martian colony would work, nor is there in this discussion.
 
Well, generally when there are questions about if something is possible, people try experiments before committing. For example, it would be a whole lot cheaper and controllable to put an artificial gravity station in LEO and try raising a colony of mice/dogs/primates there than sending a bunch of humans to Mars and see what happens. I see no plans for doing anything of the kind however.
It would be cheaper, but it would still be very expensive and would not necessarily provide definitive data on whether or not humans can live on Mars long term because the environment you describe would be significantly different from the Martian environment, and of course mice/dogs/monkeys are not people.

Then there's the economic issues. Embarking on a very expensive project with no idea whatsoever about how it could at least break even isn't courageous, it's foolhardy. And yet, there has been no even semi-serious discussion of how the finances for a Martian colony would work, nor is there in this discussion.
SpaceX is a private company. They are not beholden to you or anyone else outside of SpaceX management. SpaceX does have private investors, but it appears that they are satisfied with the direction the company is taking.

Yes, SpaceX has US government contracts that have been very helpful in getting the company off the ground. But those contracts could go away today and the company would carry on with their long term mission.

You are welcome to your opinion that what Elon is doing is "foolhardy". We can agree to disagree. Elon will carry on regardless of what we think.
 
@RDoc, you could look this Mars plan as Elon's hobby. It's what he wants to do, his passion.
Many people play golf. You can spend quite a bit of money doing that too, but the odds of it ever paying off are quite slim.
(I don't play golf, I play music.)
Elon's hobbies are a bit more expensive than most. He's a hero; he has created thousands of permanent full-time jobs. He should spend his money as he sees fit.
 
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Elon's hobbies are a bit more expensive than most. He's a hero; he has created thousands of permanent full-time jobs. He should spend his money as he sees fit.
And Elon's passion is about improving the future of humanity in the most fundamental way since a hominid first chipped a piece of stone to make a tool over 2.5 million years ago.

Making human life multiplanetary (meaning a sustainable colony independent of Earth) will take centuries and may well fail. Elon is the first to admit that failure is a distinct possibility. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, given that at this particular moment in human history we are just starting to have the necessary knowledge to make the probability of failure something at least a bit less than 100%.

If we succeed, the payoff is that the probability that Homo sapiens goes extinct is markedly reduced over the next several million years. On balance I think that would be a positive outcome.

And of course, journeying to and living on Mars would be the greatest adventure ever. :D
 
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Well, generally when there are questions about if something is possible, people try experiments before committing. For example, it would be a whole lot cheaper and controllable to put an artificial gravity station in LEO and try raising a colony of mice/dogs/primates there than sending a bunch of humans to Mars and see what happens. I see no plans for doing anything of the kind however.

Then there's the economic issues. Embarking on a very expensive project with no idea whatsoever about how it could at least break even isn't courageous, it's foolhardy. And yet, there has been no even semi-serious discussion of how the finances for a Martian colony would work, nor is there in this discussion.
Yet the Plymouth colony turned out ok. Many have worked, many have not. Progress was made nevertheless.
 
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