Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Energy demand in EV era

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Dont know if this was discussed before, but I wonder how much pressure will be put on energy supply, if x percent of ICE cars are swapped with EVs?

I believe millions of EV cars will become the major electric consumers and wondering where we will find out a "clean" source which is able to handle this much demand, in the (near) future?

I am also pretty sure that the transformer box (or whatever its name is) in my neighborhood, not quite prepared to handle such a demand from soon coming home-superchargeable cars, especially hundreds of them, in very same night.

Your opinions ?
 
Dont know if this was discussed before, but I wonder how much pressure will be put on energy supply, if x percent of ICE cars are swapped with EVs?

I believe millions of EV cars will become the major electric consumers and wondering where we will find out a "clean" source which is able to handle this much demand, in the (near) future?

I am also pretty sure that the transformer box (or whatever its name is) in my neighborhood, not quite prepared to handle such a demand from soon coming home-superchargeable cars, especially hundreds of them, in very same night.

Your opinions ?

In grid infrastructure terms any strain would be at local level rather than a regional or national level. Cars can easily be charged at night (and time-of-use pricing would help) which means that they would be charging during times where production and grid use would otherwise be low.

On the energy side, in order for EVs to put pressure on energy supply there would have to be lots of them, and that would imply lots of batteries being manufactured at low cost.

Batteries are a scalable way to take non-dispatchable electricity generation, store it, and use it as a dispatchable resource. Aside from the dispatchable hydro, the cheapest and more efficient sources of electricity are non-dispatchable; that includes solar and wind which both continue to fall in price.

If we have lots of batteries, we can use them for demand response and production response to integrate better renewable generation, which would allow us to eliminate the low-efficiency dispatchable fossil fuel generators and to lower overall fossil fuel generation.

There are seasonal issues with renewable generation, but the overall benefits of having production of cheap batteries at massive scale are so overwhelming that I do not see it as any cause for concern.
 
Here is a long article summarizing what California utilities companies are doing. This has been on on-going discussion for the last few years. California is already 30% clean energy and getting cleaner every day. Large # of EVs do add significant load to the grid but the load is different from traditional electricity usage so there are new concerns, and also new approaches, such as a BMW/PG&E trial using 100 i3 to test how to shift EV charging timing to better suit peak grid power usage. Further extending that V2G (vehicle to grid) could provide battery backup for the grid. Given state regulatory support, this could also be an opportunity for utility to spend CapEx towards the charging infrastructure, not just passively handling the load demand, but actively owning a piece of the pie on the future EV economy.
How California utility regulators are turning electric vehicles into grid resources
PG&E and BMW Partner on Next Phase of Pilot Studying Advanced Electric Vehicle Charging | PG&E
 
  • Like
Reactions: dhrivnak
Thanks for these informative replies, but I am not quite sure that night time charging will present a great adventage by means of load, thinking hundreds of thousands of thirsty cars. There may be more complicated scenarios, like rush for a small vacation as happened on short holidays, all vehicles will be plugged in same night, or maybe worst, like evacuations due to weather anomalies etc.. I think govts have to be well prepared, since we all know how mobile phones collapse in case of a regional event..
 
If you look at the big picture, it'll be fine. Our grid experiences a 2:1 demand swing during the day most places, which means there's a lot of slack in it that could be used to charge EVs, and the overall impact of charging cars on power generation isn't that large (~26% increase/EVs would represent ~21% of total production.) Here's a long analysis with reference sources I put together a while back:

Over here, the US used 136.78 billion gallons of gas in 2014.



If you look at this, the total US grid electricity production for 2014 was 14.78 Quads of electricity.



These two looked at together show that US drivers drove about 2.98 trillion miles in 2014.



Incidentally, that suggests 21.8 mpg overall average (2.98 trillion miles/136.78 billion gallons.)



A quad of electricity is a quadrillion BTUs - at 3412.14 BTUs per kWh, it is about 293 GWh per quad.



For the sake of this exercise, I'll assume that all those 2.98 trillion miles are suddenly being driven by RWD 85 kWh Model Ss. Not only is this a more viable car for most people than the others, it's also one of the least efficient pure EVs in the current market (due to the weight and performance gearing) - so it should give a conservative answer.



Over here, the EPA rates that car at 38 kWh per 100 miles including charging losses.



2.98 trillion miles at 38 kWh per 100 miles gives 1.132 PWh - 1.1 trillion kWh. That's a huge total, right?



But here's the perspective on that - it's only 3.86 quads. In the electricity chart I gave you above, we spent 4.79 quads (1.4 PWh) on residential electricity usage alone in 2014.



With that perspective and considering that the current grid experiences a 2:1 ratio of consumption from the middle of the afternoon to the middle of the night, it should be clear that the grid as a whole should be fine.



There could be local cases where residential neighborhoods that were already near the edge might need some improvement in the infrastructure, but it should be minimal and localized - and the variable nature of EV charging could help a lot...



If the cars involved are indeed Model Ss, with always on net connectivity and extensive software, there's no reason they can't be tied to the power company directly through the web. What if the power company gave you a 20% discount on all your charging power in exchange for the right to choose exactly when and how fast you charge, with a guarantee that they'd always give you a battery charged to your charging target before you leave in the morning?



That sort of deal would be a no-brainer for me, and I'd think most of us - but the power company would probably come out ahead on it as well. If they have a bunch of cars charging, they can ramp the rates up and down or suspend/initiate charging a lot faster than they can spin up most types of standby power to respond to load changes - and the distributed nature of the load would let them balance the response across transmission lines too.



The next step, vehicle to grid (V2G) where they could actually use a little power from you battery to meet the demand, requires a lot more infrastructure and control and may not happen, but just the flexibility to shape what would become ~21% of their overall usage would be a huge boon and might save them (and hopefully thereafter you) money on meeting spinning reserve requirements if the system for adjusting the charging is robust enough to convince regulators.



Of course, there aren't 216.8 million Model Ss to drive those 2.98 trillion miles, and there won't be for some time. We certainly have the ability to build enough car bodies, and I believe that with all the other things we use them for, we probably have enough capacity to build the power electronics and the drive motors. The problem is batteries...



Tesla sees this coming, and that's why they are building the Gigafactory. If you look here, you'll see that Tesla is hoping to build 35 Gwh of batteries at the Gigafactory in 2020 and every year thereafter. That's more than the entire industry produced in 2013 - and still a drop in the bucket for total conversion.



Those 216.8 million Model Ss up above need 18.4 TWh of capacity - 526 years of production at 35 GWh per year. Even if they were 216.8 million Leafs instead, they'd still need nearly 5 TWh - two orders of magnitude more than the Gigafactory can produce.



After spending a while trying to digest this chart, I think it's telling me that in 2014 we introduced about 16.8 million new cars into the fleet. (Which means the average car lasts 12.9 years in service somewhere.) If we were building only EVs, we'd need 1.4 TWh of production (or, eventually, recycling of batteries from old EVs) for Model Ss or 370 GWh for Leafs - between 11 and 40 times the planned Gigafactory capacity.



Lithium is fairly plentiful, and "mining" it is both relatively easy and not horrible for the environment (mostly achieved by concentrating salts from ground water, especially geothermal type deep underground water,) but we're going to need to do a whole lot of it, even though the Model S battery only has about 20 pounds of Lithium in the ~1200 pound pack.
 
In your example, what's more important may not be the # of cars plugged in, but the # of miles that these cars need to recharge to full again. Not every cars that are plugged in to charge will have an "empty tank". Many of them will only need to recharge 30 miles of electricity as that is the average distance people drive. However, an argument could be made for the day after the holiday long trip, that would be the day when many people will recharge a lot of spent miles on the same day. According to US government, holidays increases long distance drives by ~20-50%, and the driving is pretty evenly spread out over several days around the holiday, so it's not a huge spike. Also many of these drivers will be able to charge en-route which will distribute their charging time. So I suspect the impact it has on the grid will be gentler than you suspected
U.S. Holiday Travel | Bureau of Transportation Statistics
 
Another perspective: A quick napkin calculation of converting California's current ground based gasoline consumption to EV would be the equivalent of three times the current total electrical load.

This won't happen overnight so they have decades to figure it out. But just TOU shifting, batteries, and even V2G is not going to solve the long term infrastructure requirements when you triple the amount of energy you are delivering. And on top of that the energy itself will probably have to come mostly from solar with either battery and/or hydrogen storage so that will also be a huge capital increase too.

Any way you look at it, the shift to a mostly EV infrastructure is going to be expensive and vast. BTW this is the exact thing that electric utilities like PG&E like. They are paid to create and maintain electrical energy delivery systems. After de-reg, they get very little income from producing power.
 
Any way you look at it, the shift to a mostly EV infrastructure is going to be expensive and vast. BTW this is the exact thing that electric utilities like PG&E like. They are paid to create and maintain electrical energy delivery systems. After de-reg, they get very little income from producing power.

Exactly, PG&E will be more than happy to eat oil company and gas station's lunch, and get government incentive to do it.
 
Considering that I'm only coming up with a 26% increase using national statistics from the government, could you show us your napkin, please?

It's a rough napkin but you can check my work.

California consumes approximately 13 billion gallons of gasoline per year. If that energy was consumed by electrical vehicles, using 34 kWh/gallon of gas), the impact to the power grid would be over 612,000 (GWhr). This is over twice the total 2014 consumption of 296 (GWhr) .

Twice the load added to the current load would be 3x.

Some references used:
Petroleum-based gasoline and diesel fuel account for more than 90 percent of California ground transportation fuel use
http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/total_system_power.html

The average fuel efficiency for vehicles in was 17 mpg
Source: CEC - 2016-2017 Investment Plan Update for the Alternative and Renewable Fuel and Vehicle Technology Program
 
  • Like
Reactions: dhrivnak
It's a rough napkin but you can check my work.

California consumes approximately 13 billion gallons of gasoline per year. If that energy was consumed by electrical vehicles, using 34 kWh/gallon of gas), the impact to the power grid would be over 612,000 (GWhr). This is over twice the total 2014 consumption of 296 (GWhr) .

Twice the load added to the current load would be 3x.

Some references used:
Petroleum-based gasoline and diesel fuel account for more than 90 percent of California ground transportation fuel use
http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/total_system_power.html

The average fuel efficiency for vehicles in was 17 mpg
Source: CEC - 2016-2017 Investment Plan Update for the Alternative and Renewable Fuel and Vehicle Technology Program

That would appear to require you finding EVs that average 17 MPGe. The radical difference in energy consumption between the typical gas car and its equivalent EV was why I used the per mile basis and known EV consumptions when I approached the problem.
 
It's a rough napkin but you can check my work.

California consumes approximately 13 billion gallons of gasoline per year. If that energy was consumed by electrical vehicles, using 34 kWh/gallon of gas), the impact to the power grid would be over 612,000 (GWhr). This is over twice the total 2014 consumption of 296 (GWhr) .
My math is this, 13 billion galons * 17 mpg = 221 billion miles that Californians drive each year (sounds right about 10-15K miles for 15-20 million drivers), Tesla typically uses 0.3-0.4 kwh per mile, so this translates to 88 Gwh at the high end (0.4kwh/mile), not 612 Gwh, and ~ 30% of 2014 electricity consumption that you quoted
 
Last edited:
I think you have to figure in the anticipated growth of rooftop solar and who knows what effect of the fledgling industry of Powerwalls, Powerpacks etc. will have on off-grid production. If things play out with battery storage, PG@E may not see as much growth in demand as folks are calculating. Lots of factors at play here.
 
That would appear to require you finding EVs that average 17 MPGe. The radical difference in energy consumption between the typical gas car and its equivalent EV was why I used the per mile basis and known EV consumptions when I approached the problem.
Yeah. Good point. I forgot to take in the increased efficiency. But now may math says it should be ~1/4 of my original estimate or ~50% of the grid load, so we would get to 1 1/2 times total current load. The estimated 26% so 1 1/4 times? Close enough. And if cars get even more efficient (or smaller) then it will trend towards the lower number.

The only thing that might save me is converting diesel semis to MPGe. :)
 
The plan is for +90% of all electric vehicle charging to be done in the evening hours, when municipal electrical generation is ample and often wasted. Little load on the grid at this time means no need for peaker plants to be turned on, and provices the vehicle with a totally full charge that can then be used for transportation during the daytime. Easily spreads out the load and essentially makes EV charging a non issue for the utilities.
This is often the lowest cost time to charge up your vehicles as well.

Biggest issue that municipal generators have is dealing with peak power draw during hotter than ususal days. Adding additional load during evening hours simply smooths out the demand to the huge benefit of the electrical generation grid.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dhrivnak
The 2013 era analyses and numerous utility studies (I quote none specifically because Google produced dozens of them) mostly concluded minimal grid impact from mass EV adoptions, and some even argued it would tend to even demand and reduce volatility. A Texas study of the era concluded everyone would come home and charge after work just as they were turning on their A/C. The more recent ones seem to be concluding taht longer range EV's tend to reduce peak time charging, with TOU rates driving even more use off peak.

CleanTechnica published this in 2014:
Grid Capacity For Electric Vehicles Is Actually Not A Problem, Studies Find
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Roger_wilco
Elon Musk himself has been slowly evolving his public comments on this. I find Elon's public comments, looking at the most updated ones as necessary, as the best primer for answering this question.

From my poor memory, his best and most recent comment is that Tesla's Solar Roof and PowerWall (Tesla Energy) will help contribute to local grid use, and that utilities will also have to play a huge role in upgrading energy supply (using sun sourced power mostly, such as solar panels), and that the grids will need some specific upgrades in various areas. Elon said that 3x the current electrical use will be needed for all human kind's energy use to be converted to direct clean sun use (rather than indirect sun use that tends to be from mining operations and very dirty like oil, coal). He said that a lot of that supply can be from rooftops and other home sources, and a lot of that supply will be from utilities. Elon's fashioned Tesla and its future product lines around all of these concepts: solar panels and shingles, batteries, inverters and other power electronics, and electric cars, and solar and batteries sold directly to utilities and other businesses.

I'll dredge up the latest quip.

In following video (link directly to 6:20 in youtube), it is in 6:20:

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jbcarioca
I have seen it published in a few places that it takes 6kwh to refine a gallon of gas.

If it takes a car 1 gallon of gas plus 6kwh of electricity to go 17 miles. Switching to EV's, which get something like 20-24 miles on 6kwh and no gasoline, couldn't you see electricity demand fall as a result of EV's?

Seems crazy, and the fleet average of ICE is going to get way higher than 17mpg, but could be true today and at least a large consideration for planning future infrastructure and generation needs.
 
I have seen it published in a few places that it takes 6kwh to refine a gallon of gas...
This is a myth that keeps getting repeated because it seems so compelling on the surface. It may take about 6 kWh of energy to refine a gallon of gasoline, but relatively little of that is from electricity. Most is natural gas or refining byproducts used to heat or power the refining process. Some of that is used in cogeneration to produce electricity.

There are plenty of good reasons to support the conversion of ground transportation to EVs, but saving electricity used in refining gasoline isn't one of them.