Energy limit from solar sending back to PGE?

[roblab]

I was just talking to a person who had a solar installer on a quote tell him that there is a cap on how much electricity one
can send back to PGE and get credit? I have never heard of this? Any thoughts?

The idea is that PG&E wants to sell you power, and not buy it from tons of customers. They don't mind if you generate enough to eliminate your bill, but that's about all. At this point, a little over a month to true up, PG&E owes me about $300 for my solar generation, which is over and above what I use myself. That's the only "cap" I know of. From what I understand, a person would have to get a commercial generation license if they began pumping power to their neighbors, and there is also the question of PG&E needing the generators off when working on local power lines. I'm sure there's more to it than this, though.

 

[Ampster]

but makes wife happy. Is that an ROI?

No but it does significantly increase WAF. (Wife Acceptance Factor)

 

[astrorob]

There was a tiny window (6 months?) where PG&E granted EVA-1 users who just made a change to their environment to stay on that plan for up to 5 years. Many were forced off of NEM1 to NEM2 in the process.

are you referring to the 2nd PTO that might be taken as the start of a new 5 year grandfathering period? there was supposition that adding powerwalls and transitioning to NEM-2 would be enough of a 'change to the environment' to trigger a new PTO but as far as i could tell (from reading here) this was always just a misreading of the rules by a subset of PGE solar account representatives. i'm not sure anyone ever successfully accomplished this.

 

[Ampster]

The idea is that PG&E wants to sell you power,

The reality is that for the most part the California Investor Owned Utilities sold off most of their generation during deregulation in the late 90's. They buy power in the open market and are allowed overhead but not significant profit. Their operating model today is primarily to transmit and distribute energy. Their main beef with NEM is that they were not getting reimbursed for their distribution and that is why they got Minimum Delivery Charges included in most of the tariffs and why NEM 2.0 included Non Bypassable charges so they would get something for letting solar customers use the grid as a battery. The big unknown is what NEM 3.0 is going to look like.

 

[getakey]

Now I remember I got EVA-1 when I purchased home in May 2018. Added Solar in July 2018 and was on NEM1. Added PWs in 2020 (PTO was ~April/May) and they moved me to NEM2, but stayed on EVA-1

 

[sorka]

From 4 to 9 PM?

TOU-C is 4-9 PM. So is EV20A but the 3-4 and 9-12 part peak is only 1 penny less than peak.

 

[sorka]

TOU-c rate structure is totally different than EV2a. I thought if you purchased an EV you had to be on EV2a? But, for the cost to charge an EV, I sure would want that plan so I charged at a much lower rate than TOU-c.

You don't have to switch of course but I'd still want the EV rate even if I didn't have an EV.

 

[getakey]

Now I remember I got EVA-1 when I purchased home in May 2018. Added Solar in July 2018 and was on NEM1. Added PWs in 2020 (PTO was ~April/May) and they moved me to NEM2, but stayed on EVA-1

I take that back. I think I got NEM2 when I installed panels in 2018. When I installed PWs, I got an unexpected true-up bill, but stayed on same rate plan

 

[Ampster]

I think I got NEM2 when I installed panels in 2018

That is consistent with my solar install which started in 2017 but the PTO was not received until early 2019. I am also on NEM 2.0. I did get the EVA tariff in 2017 and my PTO did not affect that.

 

[astrorob]

Now I remember I got EVA-1 when I purchased home in May 2018. Added Solar in July 2018 and was on NEM1. Added PWs in 2020 (PTO was ~April/May) and they moved me to NEM2, but stayed on EVA-1

was this a requirement though? i was able to fill out a NEM-1 form for storage in december of 2019 and even though the installation was not done until nov 2020, as far as i can tell i'm still on NEM-1. tesla may have just given you the wrong NEM form at the time? they are almost identical to one another both in language and document number.

 

[getakey]

was this a requirement though? i was able to fill out a NEM-1 form for storage in december of 2019 and even though the installation was not done until nov 2020, as far as i can tell i'm still on NEM-1. tesla may have just given you the wrong NEM form at the time? they are almost identical to one another both in language and document number.

I didn't do Tesla for solar or PW, but pretty sure I got NEM2 when I installed solar in 2018

 

[Ampster]

was this a requirement though? i was able to fill out a NEM-1 form for storage in december of 2019 and even though the installation was not done until nov 2020, as far as i can tell i'm still on NEM-1.

I assume your NEM 1.0 solar install was earlier and you were able to retain NEM 1.0 when you added storage.
My solar install was 2018 as was the install of getakey. Every utility had a slightly different date when NEM 2.0 was implemented but I think it was 2017.

 

[h2ofun]

was this a requirement though? i was able to fill out a NEM-1 form for storage in december of 2019 and even though the installation was not done until nov 2020, as far as i can tell i'm still on NEM-1. tesla may have just given you the wrong NEM form at the time? they are almost identical to one another both in language and document number.

If one is on NEM1, and panel increase is not over 1KW, then one can stay on NEM1 I believe.

 

[RKCRLR]

TOU-C is 4-9 PM. So is EV20A but the 3-4 and 9-12 part peak is only 1 penny less than peak.

This is true in the winter but peak is significantly more than partial peak in the summer.

 

[RKCRLR]

No, you don't have to be on an EV plan if you have an EV. Usually makes sense to change though to get the low off peak rate to charge

EV2-A makes sense if you have an EV because you are allowed to charge it from the grid during it during off-peak hours. It doesn't work that way if you have Powerwalls and solar.

I'm hoping they will come up with a way to allow you charge Powerwalls from the grid if you have solar. Between an algorithm created by Tesla and a modified true-up plan to make sure you aren't gaming the system I'm sure it could be done. Tesla already has an algorithm in place to make sure you meet the discharge requirements of the SGIP incentive.

This would allow people to install a smaller solar system and still have $0 true-ups. It would also allow people to have backup reserve for a longer period of time.

 

[Ampster]

If one is on NEM1, and panel increase is not over 1KW, then one can stay on NEM1 I believe.

Yes, i have done that several times. In one case, I have added 2 kW of panels but they are AC coupled to a hybrid inverter which can limit my export. That way I can stay within my interpretation of the restriction in my PTO. I did not ask my provider for permission or clarification so if you do the same it is at your own risk.

 

[sorka]

This is true in the winter but peak is significantly more than partial peak in the summer.

But then there are many more hours for EV2A to sell back at peak times in the summer than the winter and both TOU-C and EV2A are more than double off peak of EV2A.

 

[Ampster]

both TOU-C and EV2A are more than double off peak of EV2A.

Yes, and it summer triple the off peak rate.
It all depends on where you are standing. I have three months left until my True Up. I have a $238 credit that will essentially expire at True Up and 330 negative balance in kWhs. When I say expire I mean I will get a dividend of maybe $30 on that balance. However if I charge my EVs off peak and use 500 kWhrs in the next three months I might incur $10 of NBCs and the rest would be free except for the opportunity cost of that $30 dividend.
The reality is that I could use over a 1,500 kWhs at super off peak rates before I would incur a NEM True Up charge. To me that is free energy which I stored during the summer and which I can use for a small fee in the winter with a leverage of over three to one. ($0.55/kWh in summer versus super off peak of $0.15 plus $0.20 NBC.
I think you originally said buy low and sell high. In actuality the sequence for me is to sell high and put it in the bank and buy it back later at low rates. But it is the same result either way it is stated.

 

[h2ofun]

Yes, and it summer triple the off peak rate.
It all depends on where you are standing. I have three months left until my True Up. I have a $238 credit that will essentially expire at True Up and 330 negative balance in kWhs. When I say expire I mean I will get a dividend of maybe $30 on that balance. However if I charge my EVs off peak and use 500 kWhrs in the next three months I might incur $10 of NBCs and the rest would be free except for the opportunity cost of that $30 dividend.
The reality is that I could use over a 1,500 kWhs at super off peak rates before I would incur a NEM True Up charge. To me that is free energy which I stored during the summer and which I can use for a small fee in the winter with a leverage of over three to one. ($0.55/kWh in summer versus super off peak of $0.15 plus $0.20 NBC.
I think you originally said buy low and sell high. In actuality the sequence for me is to sell high and put it in the bank and buy it back later at low rates. But it is the same result either way it is stated.

For me it is just sell it back to my PGE battery when not needed. Since I am on tou-c rates as basically same all the time, so I just use what I use. From like mid July to mid Oct, I had a 600 buck credit. I now have 300. I expect to be neutral in mid Jan. But when my solar kicks up again, My PGE battery will fill up and I can keep the house at what ever cool temp I need. I should easily get a zero true up with zero batteries.

 

[Ampster]

My PGE battery will fill up and I can keep the house at what ever cool temp I need. I should easily get a zero true up with zero batteries.

So if that is the case for someone, how would they get a ROI on a Powerwall, other than justifying the value of back up or of WAF?
My case may be different, because my load shedding during peak was enabled by my Outback Skybox which along with my EVs gave me plenty of ability to shift loads to the super off peak rates. That would be the same use case as a Powerwall. My case was also different than just adding a Powerwall because I was able to add more solar beyond that allowed by my PTO and self consume some of that power so it did not trip up my PTO limit on selling.