Enhanced Autopilot (EAP)

[GRiLLA]

I don't understand all these expectations of being able to transfer between cars, it makes no sense. Do you expect a lifetime entitlement for a capability and everything it ever evolves into. It would create a huge liability for Tesla.

A subscription makes more sense, then you could stop on one car and start another. It's inevitable now they have the capability from premium connectivity.

 

[DrivenRay]

I love my Tesla M3, but I will only purchase “FSD” or any other variant of it, when Tesla have so much confidence in it, that they accept any incurable liability for errors it may make. This day may come as they offer car insurance in some USA markets already! But for now I enjoy the driving experience myself

 

[Yev000]

I don't understand all these expectations of being able to transfer between cars

There is really nothing to understand... there are 2 simple factors:

1. People dont currently see the value - at least in UK it's a lot worse than in US - so the value *proposition* @ 7k is not there
2. IF they decide to pay 7k, they want to trasfer it to another car when presumably it will be *worth* 7k - even though at that stage it might be priced higher.

It would create a huge liability for Tesla.

Nah, sorry.... Lets look at the math. There are currently somewhere between 1.2 and 1.4 million Teslas in the world. Some indeterminate persantage has "FSD". So lets say 1 million of these cars today are capable of *having* FSD and therefore *trasferring* the "license" to another car.

Tesla is planning on producing 800k cars in 21, 1.4mil in 22, 2.2mil in 23 etc.... *All* of those can have FSD from new.

So really having existing owners trasferring an FSD package that is not feature complete - especially in UK and EU due to regulations and roudabouts, but with the same price - to a future car. People keep their cars for ~2-5 years. UK model 3s with original FSD are already over a year old. If it takes another 1-2 years to add roundabouts so FSD is feature complete thats new car territory. So in effect if you bought last year, paid for FSD, you wont see the majority (over and above EAP) functionality untill you buy a new car... Then you are forced to pay for it again.

I do not think Tesla will have "huge liability" to grandfather early adopers. I also don't think they will let you trasfer FSD because they generally dont give a monkeys about early adopters....

Even if they let everyone buy the FSD license and keep it forever it wont be an issue because most customers are fist time Tesla owners and will be for a while. They can always lock the last part - taxi to make you money - behind another paywall.

 

[phil4]

Yev hits the nail on the head as far as my thinking. I've just bought a Model 3 on a 4 year PCP. FSD at present is very expensive for something that can't handle roundabouts (which are very frequent in the UK) and requires your hands on the wheel, and to initiate any overtakes. Realistically it's not the F of FSD in the UK at present. So it'd be me gambling on FSD improving enough in the 4 years I own it to make it worthwhile spending £7K. Nah, forget that, it's just too much of a gamble. If I were allowed to transfer it to a new car, even just once... then suddenly it becomes a lot more reasonable of a prospect.

Moving it to subscription is a good idea, but I suspect it'll be too expensive (eg. £250/month, to fit in with the current high price point), and as in the UK too limited to be worthwhile for more than a trial month.

As as Yev says, they can split out functionality as they like, and keep them separate/more expensive. They already did that with EAP vs FSD.

 

[simonh]

I've developed and sold compute software for the last 30 years or more. First, we sold it, then you bought upgrades to get new version for new features or compatibility with the latest operating system.... people complain that they should get free updates whenever they get a new version of Windows (not economically viable)... so then you offer buy it with a small yearly maintenance fee that entitles you to updates as and when... people complain they don't want yearly maintenance as they might not need any updates or new features... so then you offer yearly subscriptions instead... and people complain that they just want to pay a fixed upfront fee and maintenance as an when.

You seriously can't win with "software".

 

[Yev000]

You seriously can't win with "software".

Thats true of anything. You will never please everyone.

And if we look at the current functionality of EAP - not just specific "feature-sets" that may overlap with other cars - but how well it does each feature and how much that feature improves via free updates over the life of the car, I'd say EAP is worth £4k - if you intend to keep the car for the usual period (obviosly if you want to get a new Tesla Y next year maybe hold off on that)

The *promised* featureset for FSD - not so much.

To give an example, traffic lights were supposed to be done Sept 2019, they just about *maybe* work now in UK a year later. At this rate UK wont get FSD until the early buyers have 3-4 yr old cars. So to get FSD at that point it would make more sense to buy a new car rather than buy the feature.

The equivalet example for you, you would be charging for "all future OS compatibility for life of your current PC" at x3 the price of your current software. If the OS never upgrades before you buy a new PC - then that feature is worthless.

On the other hand, if you dont want to upgrade your PC for 10 years, but do plan to have the latest OS, maybe it is worth it.

There is really not much point agonising about company pricing policies, if you want the try FSD in UK, EAP gets you there at half the price. Next, year, after the re-write and possible auto roundabouts that formula might change.

A year ago I predicted they will sell off comple features in cheaper brackets. They might create another tier to bundle "complete" features. That would make more sence if you cant transer the license.

 

[kelvin 660]

For me EAP is way too expensive at nearly 10% of the value of a SR+. I think it gives very little value or benefit as;
- NOA is not good on on and off ramps and only useful for long trips...
- Auto lane change might be good, however knowing Tesla software it will probably be very skitty with much phantom braking..
- Auto park doesn't work very well from what I've see on YouTube
- And summon in the UK is too restricted and not really useful

Now if it was priced less than £1,000, I might be more inclined to give it a go...

Note: last day to get this offer is today 30th September!

 

[dan223]

For me EAP is way too expensive at nearly 10% of the value of a SR+. I think it gives very little value or benefit as;
- NOA is not good on on and off ramps and only useful for long trips...
- Auto lane change might be good, however knowing Tesla software it will probably be very skitty with much phantom braking..
- Auto park doesn't work very well from what I've see on YouTube
- And summon in the UK is too restricted and not really useful

Now if it was priced less than £1,000, I might be more inclined to give it a go...

Note: last day to get this offer is today 30th September!

Agreed if it was prices at 1K, maybe 1.5K i would be a lot more tempted, as it is, it is too expensive.

 

[GRiLLA]

There is really nothing to understand... there are 2 simple factors:

1. People dont currently see the value - at least in UK it's a lot worse than in US - so the value *proposition* @ 7k is not there
2. IF they decide to pay 7k, they want to trasfer it to another car when presumably it will be *worth* 7k - even though at that stage it might be priced higher.



Nah, sorry.... Lets look at the math. There are currently somewhere between 1.2 and 1.4 million Teslas in the world. Some indeterminate persantage has "FSD". So lets say 1 million of these cars today are capable of *having* FSD and therefore *trasferring* the "license" to another car.

Tesla is planning on producing 800k cars in 21, 1.4mil in 22, 2.2mil in 23 etc.... *All* of those can have FSD from new.

So really having existing owners trasferring an FSD package that is not feature complete - especially in UK and EU due to regulations and roudabouts, but with the same price - to a future car. People keep their cars for ~2-5 years. UK model 3s with original FSD are already over a year old. If it takes another 1-2 years to add roundabouts so FSD is feature complete thats new car territory. So in effect if you bought last year, paid for FSD, you wont see the majority (over and above EAP) functionality untill you buy a new car... Then you are forced to pay for it again.

I do not think Tesla will have "huge liability" to grandfather early adopers. I also don't think they will let you trasfer FSD because they generally dont give a monkeys about early adopters....

Even if they let everyone buy the FSD license and keep it forever it wont be an issue because most customers are fist time Tesla owners and will be for a while. They can always lock the last part - taxi to make you money - behind another paywall.

Some people don't see the value, plenty of other including myself are happy, although I did pay £4,900 for it last May. I don't know of any statistics that show what %age take the option. Autopilot and FSD was most of why I chose a Tesla, no question that I would take it and will again on my next Tesla.

The point being that if you could 'transfer' that would mean I could take that initial payment with me to every other Tesla I buy for the rest of my life? Or better still could I hand it down in my will to my children? Perpetual software licensing in IT only works where something is versioned, and has no guarantee that it will work on future hardware. You get free updates to your Windows 10 or OSX, but can't transfer them to new hardware. You can transfer your Office '97 license but have no guarantee it will work on new operating systems and don't get a free update.

A subscription will be more likely.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I've developed and sold compute software for the last 30 years or more. First, we sold it, then you bought upgrades to get new version for new features or compatibility with the latest operating system.... people complain that they should get free updates whenever they get a new version of Windows (not economically viable)... so then you offer buy it with a small yearly maintenance fee that entitles you to updates as and when... people complain they don't want yearly maintenance as they might not need any updates or new features... so then you offer yearly subscriptions instead... and people complain that they just want to pay a fixed upfront fee and maintenance as an when.

You seriously can't win with "software".

I think the key difference here is Tesla sold the software before it was developed and said yuou'd have the features as and when they became available. This is certainly true for FSD but even EAP when it first came out was sold when it didn't exist back in early 2017.

You'd be right if Tesla had said "this is it.. " but they've never done that, they still call it beta so I think they've made a rod for their own back. You're certainly right in other areas of software because generally what you sell is fit for the purpose its sold and not sold before its ready..

Subscription I think is a long way off - if you amortise the cost of FSD over the life of the expected car ownership (4 years from a quick google) its £200 a month or so - thats 30-50% of the cost of some peoples lease - for a feature that doesn't today do a lot?

 

[Yev000]

I did pay £4,900 for it last May

I did not have the money and could not justify the loan back then. I ended up paying 3,400, with another 3,900 to lock in the remaining features.

You can look at that any number of ways...

You can say I'm paying 3400 for 95% of the functionality of a 4900 (now 6800) feature.

Or

You can say you are locking the price in by buying the whole thing..

I think the main variable here is - how long you will keep the car. If they offer some kind of trasfer path, we can have a discussion. But if FSD stays with the car and you plan to upgrade in 2 years (3 yr ownership), I'd argue its not worth full FSD in UK or even Europe as a whole. Primarily I think it will take at least another 2 years for regulations to catch up and allow some of the features (like max turn speed limit).

With EAP you have features that will carry on improving and you will have a better understanding of the value proposition of FSD come time for a new car vs the forum surfers here... I'd wager most people talking about £1k price tags here will never buy it unless it comes "free" with the car.

There is also another interesting aspect, with second hand car prices.

Tesla Model 3
2019 (69 reg)

Standard Range Plus Auto 4dr

Price £36,495

With FSD.... My loan was for 35k + trade in of 1500. Very little depreciation, at least after 1 year (assuming this sells)

 

[tomorrowman]

The problem is Tesla are pricing it on the basis you will be able to send your car out by itself to earn a living as a driverless uber equivalent.
Elon has this grand idea that the better the S/W gets the more he will charge, but he is missing the point that not everybody wants to send their car out to earn money.

It does fit in the company direction transitioning transport from ICE to EV i.e. if journeys on a self driving EV where 10%-20% of the cost of a traditional taxi (uber or otherwise) and there are sufficient numbers of them, the theory goes fewer of us would find it necessary to buy cars and the transition to EV would happen quicker (as you need less cars in total to achieve the goal if they are shared and therefore more frequently utilised i.e. not parked doing nothing 90% of the time).

 

[Yev000]

The problem is Tesla are pricing it on the basis you will be able to send your car out by itself to earn a living as a driverless uber equivalent.

I think if Tesla history is anything to go by the full FSD featureset will be available without the robotaxi portion for a fixed price. Current EAP price is another indication of this.

He even hinted at this on battery day - $25k car that will also be fully autonomous - so presumably the FSD feature would not be another $25k on top, even the current price is too much for a $25k car.

So my bet is the full feature set will be "reasonably priced" - according to demand. And the taxi part will be behind either a significat paywall, and/or they will skim X% of your fare. My prediction for this bright Jetsons future is at least another 10 years by the way... UK more like 15...

 

[davm22]

I've recently purchased my Model 3 LR and I'm looking into potentially buying EAP today, or at least trying it out for 48 hours. I have no knowledge of EAP pricing before it appeared to be discontinued but are we ever likely to see EAP cheaper than £3,400?

I know FSD was heavily reduced a year or two back but just looking to see if it's worth biting the bullet with EAP now or does history indicate we'll see the price reduce further in the near future?

 

[GRiLLA]

I've recently purchased my Model 3 LR and I'm looking into potentially buying EAP today, or at least trying it out for 48 hours. I have no knowledge of EAP pricing before it appeared to be discontinued but are we ever likely to see EAP cheaper than £3,400?

I know FSD was heavily reduced a year or two back but just looking to see if it's worth biting the bullet with EAP now or does history indicate we'll see the price reduce further in the near future?

It's Tesla, hard to predict anything. The ability to buy EAP is purely to bring in money for their end of quarter, which is why it ends today, there's no precedent for it from other quarter ends. According to Elon, the price of FSD will keep increasing as the products become more developed, he's not mentioned any specific plan for EAP. He has said there will probably be a subscription model in the future, but it won't be cheaper than buying it, however you can't really rely on these off the cuff tweets.

 

[Yev000]

are we ever likely to see EAP cheaper than £3,400?

As an addon after purchase? probably not for the ownership of your car. We will probably see it as "standard" in the future on new cars, but I doubt it will ever be a cheaper upgrade like today.

You have the much hyped re-write in the works, they wont be offering sales... They might bring back the same price for christmass, doubt it would be cheaper.

 

[m3gt2]

Still available for £3400

 

[Melsaid]

I ordered it for 3400. Will test and let you know guys.

Out of interest. Is it the same exact software as FSD. Or will FSD be a different software than EAP.

I've got an MS P 2020

 

[m3gt2]

I ordered it for 3400. Will test and let you know guys.

Out of interest. Is it the same exact software as FSD. Or will FSD be a different software than EAP.

I've got an MS P 2020

It's currently exactly the same as FSD but with the total rewrite that's been announced some are speculating that it'll be different, personally I can't see tesla will want to have more code bases than they need and I'd guess that it will be easier for them to update/enhance FSD if they have data from the vehicles without FSD.

 

[Yev000]

some are speculating that it'll be different, personally I can't see tesla will want to have more code bases

I agree that will be counter productive to their mission. Also much easier to debug/focus/train ML with one codebase.