EV parking priority

[vfx]

 

[vfx]

...

I'm just not sure that regulation or legislation is the answer. Look at the backlash from the California AB 475 "illegal to be unplugged" law, which surely started out with good intentions...

Related:

http://evchels.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/ab475-curiouser-and-curiouser/

http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/california-ab-475-public-ev-charging-etiquette-laws

http://www.fastcoexist.com/1678439/gm-vs-plug-in-america-over-the-best-way-to-implement-electric-car-charging-infrastructur
e

 

[smoothoperator]

Yes, I do think there will be enough public infrastructure. When I look at where I could charge publicly just a year ago in SF, it was Pier 29. Now just 12 months later, there are countless places to charge. In just a year, without a huge increase in the number of electric vehicles. Look at the new charging companies on the scene - they see profit. Hotels and restaurants are starting to put in chargers. Walgreens! States are setting aside dollars for infrastructure. I think we're right on the brink of exponential growth. When I took a 1300 mile roadtrip last summer, it was only remarkable because it wasn't remarkable - meaning, it wasn't newsworthy like it would have been a year earlier - because charging was not a challenge.

I'm a strong believer in the theory of abundance - meaning we do not always have to compete for resource, but rather sometimes we can actually all benefit. The larger the population needing chargers, the more chargers there will be - giving us more choice than we would have had, had we chosen to fiercely protect our territory.

I guess there is an inherent philosphical difference..I believe in free charging where an EV station is the lure to shop at a business ,where as you see charging as a business opportunity. I like to (and will go out of my way) patronize businesses and shopping centers that allow for free charging . I believe this goes further (worth of mouth) than some business owner trying make a few dollars profit on someone charging for an hour or two. Small fish vs big fish IMO.

 

[GSP]

.... By initially limiting spots to EV's this ensures that those who need the charge the most will be able to.

How will we know which EVs *need* to charge? Require drivers to file a "flight plan" with their planned route like pilots do, and register their miles remaining to prove they do not have a sufficient reserve?

That way the charging station would be kept available in case someone who *truly needed it* comes along.

GSP

 

[bonnie]

I guess there is an inherent philosphical difference..I believe in free charging where an EV station is the lure to shop at a business ,where as you see charging as a business opportunity. I like to (and will go out of my way) patronize businesses and shopping centers that allow for free charging . I believe this goes further (worth of mouth) than some business owner trying make a few dollars profit on someone charging for an hour or two. Small fish vs big fish IMO.

I'm trying to see where I implied that charging was a business opportunity.

I did say that perhaps charging for charging was a good way to filter out people who didn't really need to charge. The hotels and restaurants putting in chargers are rarely charging a fee - because, yes, it draws customers to their business. It's the ideal solution. So going back to an earlier post ... if a hotel puts in a charger, is it up to us to decide who can and cannot charge there? No, of course not. It's up to the business. (And it's doubtful a hotel will tell a customer that they cannot charge their vehicle because they're not pure EV.) And if our desire to keep all the chargers exclusive to EVs then contributes to a non-share atmosphere at public charging stations, we deserve the lack of cooperation we receive as a result.

Look at how many new charging stations have popped up in just the last 12 months. That's because some companies see business opportunity, some businesses see a way to draw customers, and some of us have contributed (financially or through advocacy) to getting those in place. There is no reason to believe that won't keep growing.

Charging station prices will drop as there is more consumer demand. http://fuelfix.com/blog/2011/08/24/rapid-growth-for-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-expected-in-u-s/

And if you were a new Volt owner, hoping to save on gas -- wouldn't you also become an advocate for the infrastructure? I'm now participating in four Earth Day events this month -- and there will be Volts side-by-side with each Tesla, Coda, and Leaf at each EV area. That's fantastic! Because they can talk to the people who are not yet ready to make the jump to pure EV. (I like vfx' training wheels analogy.)

So again, the more people supporting, the faster the EV infrastructure will grow. So I vote for sharing the plug and hoping that the next vehicle charging at a station that I desperately need, will share my sentiments and let me charge.

I carry a little stack of notes in my car saying 'Happy to share once I get enough range - please call my cell at xx' and I tuck it in the window nearest the plug. I've gotten a few phone calls - and have met some really nice people. One was a Volt owner. And I am willing to bet he now leaves a note so that people can call him & ask to share. What goes around comes around.

 

[rabar10]

The hotels and restaurants putting in chargers are rarely charging a fee - because, yes, it draws customers to their business. It's the ideal solution. So going back to an earlier post ... if a hotel puts in a charger, is it up to us to decide who can and cannot charge there? No, of course not. It's up to the business. (And it's doubtful a hotel will tell a customer that they cannot charge their vehicle because they're not pure EV.)

+1

For free privately-sponsored chargers, the lot owner/sponsor can make whatever rules they choose. But if the only point is to increase business or attract new customers, why then would they turn away some plug-in cars but not others? Now if the sponsor wants to explicitly encourage the take-up of pure EVs, then they can put restrictions on use of their charger. But the trade-off will be in the cost and hassle of enforcing those rules.

For commercially-driven chargers (companies wanting to make money from the actual use of the chargers) in high-traffic areas, they can enforce a billing scheme that works to maximize both their profit as well as the availability of the charging spot to the highest number of customers -- i.e. continue billing even if the car is full. A simple solution for this commercial approach would be to install a generic charger and then put standard parking meters in the spots in front of or around it. No need for fancy point-of-sale charging units etc. This would prevent the spots from being ICEd, and it also lets the meter companies do what they are good at (collecting funds from people that park in spots) and the charger companies do what they are good at (providing a charge for plug-in cars).

Finally, here's a compromise -- for installations with multiple chargers, why not have two separate signs for those spots -- 'Pure Battery EV Parking Only' and 'Plug-In Vehicle Parking Only'? Show preference towards pure EVs by reserving a charger/spot that is exclusive to them, while not excluding other plug-in cars from using other chargers/spots.

Even if this doesn't prevent some PHEV owners from taking the BEV spot when they arrive and the others are full, it would at least give grounds for the owner of the BEV that arrives afterwards (when all spots are now full) to politely ask him/her to make the spot available.

 

[jkirkebo]

I think a good way to deal with that problem is to treat charging stations like parking meters. If you are parked and not actively charging, you could be subject to a ticket. The meter could blink red when not charging, green when charging, just like many meters do now. Of course, there is a contingent of EV drivers that would protest the inability to park at a charging station and NOT charge!

Having to move my car at once when it's full would make public charging useless to me. Say I need two hours of charge to make it home, and I have a three-hour meeting. The car is full after 2.5 hours and the meeting turns into a four hour one. Should I leave the meeting in the middle to go hunting for a different parking spot for my Leaf ? No way, I'd take the VW TDI instead if the Leaf couldn't be left alone for the duration of the meeting.

The same goes for seeing a movie. I'm not leaving in the middle of the movie to move my car.

 

[smoothoperator]

How will we know which EVs *need* to charge? Require drivers to file a "flight plan" with their planned route like pilots do, and register their miles remaining to prove they do not have a sufficient reserve?

That way the charging station would be kept available in case someone who *truly needed it* comes along.

GSP

i was referring to EV's vs PHEV"s....it is more likely that an EV would need a charge vs a PHEV.

 

[daniel]

... what exactly is your point?

My point is that we are a heterogeneous society. We are a variety of individuals with different interests, opinions, needs, desires, etc. If we can learn to cooperate, we will be much better off than if we are always quarreling. When you demand that taxpayer money be spent for a service, and that service be limited to just your particular group, you invite dissension and conflict. You argue that chargers should be for pure EVs only, because they may need it to get home, so are you willing to exclude EVs who at the moment have enough range to get home?

You insist that the reason for public chargers is so that EVs will be able to make the trip. But others will argue that the reason for chargers is to reduce the total amount of gasoline consumed. Who is right? I say that there are many reasons for chargers, not just one reason alone. And if you want to ask the public to pay for a service, then the public has a right to set the rules of that service. And in the long term, as Bonnie points out, we'll get more chargers installed if we make common ground with Volt drivers than if we set ourselves up against them and claim to be "better" than they are because we are more "pure" and have made a "higher" commitment to electric transportation than they have.

 

[smoothoperator]

My point is that we are a heterogeneous society. We are a variety of individuals with different interests, opinions, needs, desires, etc. If we can learn to cooperate, we will be much better off than if we are always quarreling. When you demand that taxpayer money be spent for a service, and that service be limited to just your particular group, you invite dissension and conflict. You argue that chargers should be for pure EVs only, because they may need it to get home, so are you willing to exclude EVs who at the moment have enough range to get home?

You insist that the reason for public chargers is so that EVs will be able to make the trip. But others will argue that the reason for chargers is to reduce the total amount of gasoline consumed. Who is right? I say that there are many reasons for chargers, not just one reason alone. And if you want to ask the public to pay for a service, then the public has a right to set the rules of that service. And in the long term, as Bonnie points out, we'll get more chargers installed if we make common ground with Volt drivers than if we set ourselves up against them and claim to be "better" than they are because we are more "pure" and have made a "higher" commitment to electric transportation than they have.

Have you ever been in a situation where you needed a charge but were unable to due to a non ev vehicle being parked in an ev spot? If you have not it would be hard for me to explain it .

Nobody is claiming to be better, I am just claiming that some cars that are parking in EV spots are not EV"s and do not really need to charge. It is far more likely that an EV would need to charge compared to an PHEV.

Lets go with your scenario though, say the goal is really for "reducing total amount of gasoline consumed." How much gasoline will be consumed when a PiP driver is plugged into an EV charging station and, a Leaf driver that tried to use that station is unable to charge and is forced to be towed home/dealership etc? Which scenario would consume more gasoline? Please advise.

 

[smoothoperator]

I'm trying to see where I implied that charging was a business opportunity.

I did say that perhaps charging for charging was a good way to filter out people who didn't really need to charge. The hotels and restaurants putting in chargers are rarely charging a fee - because, yes, it draws customers to their business. It's the ideal solution. So going back to an earlier post ... if a hotel puts in a charger, is it up to us to decide who can and cannot charge there? No, of course not. It's up to the business. (And it's doubtful a hotel will tell a customer that they cannot charge their vehicle because they're not pure EV.) And if our desire to keep all the chargers exclusive to EVs then contributes to a non-share atmosphere at public charging stations, we deserve the lack of cooperation we receive as a result.

All the public charging stations I have been to (I would guess probably in the range of 60-70) have all said parking for EV's only . The goal here should be to get PHEV auto manufacturers to share some of the burden of building the infrastructure. Why isn't Toyota building ANY charging infrastructure. If sharing is the solution then both EV and PHEV should share the burden of building out this infrastructure. I do not agree with PHEV manufacturers building cars and not having a hand in the infrastructure (especially a company as large as Toyota). The infrastructure is growing, but from what I have seen it has been single stations being implemented (i.e. most of the Walgreens Chargepoints are single units), which are the most frustrating because seldom is there a plan b.

Look at how many new charging stations have popped up in just the last 12 months. That's because some companies see business opportunity, some businesses see a way to draw customers, and some of us have contributed (financially or through advocacy) to getting those in place. There is no reason to believe that won't keep growing.

Preach on...I was able to get 8 new Chargepoint stations added to a building, I know a lot of people have been able to get building owners etc to install charging stations. The incremental growth is not the problem...there will be an explosion of plug in capable vehicles over the next year hitting the market. I have no doubts the amount of charging stations will grow, my concern is that the sale of Plug in capable cars will far outpace this growth (especially since most charging infrastructure depends on government funds).

Charging station prices will drop as there is more consumer demand. http://fuelfix.com/blog/2011/08/24/rapid-growth-for-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-expected-in-u-s/

And if you were a new Volt owner, hoping to save on gas -- wouldn't you also become an advocate for the infrastructure? I'm now participating in four Earth Day events this month -- and there will be Volts side-by-side with each Tesla, Coda, and Leaf at each EV area. That's fantastic! Because they can talk to the people who are not yet ready to make the jump to pure EV. (I like vfx' training wheels analogy.)

So again, the more people supporting, the faster the EV infrastructure will grow. So I vote for sharing the plug and hoping that the next vehicle charging at a station that I desperately need, will share my sentiments and let me charge.

I carry a little stack of notes in my car saying 'Happy to share once I get enough range - please call my cell at xx' and I tuck it in the window nearest the plug. I've gotten a few phone calls - and have met some really nice people. One was a Volt owner. And I am willing to bet he now leaves a note so that people can call him & ask to share. What goes around comes around.

Once again it is a guess on how quickly EV infrastructure will grow since it is mostly dependent on government funding sources. One could easily predict that there will be a significant amount of plug in capable vehicles that will be sold over the next few years. One is a known one is a guess, you are a gambler if you are betting on growth meeting demand.

I think these scenarios where EV drivers are painted as haters of PHEV's are ridiculous. Honestly I couldn't care less what someone else drives, I am just looking to charge my vehicle. If someone is occupying that charge station that is not an EV I think that is selfish (unless they leave a note) Your motivations may be to meet new people, mine are to get from point A to point B.

 

[Dave EV]

I like this idea. Until there is a charge station at most spots, charge the person to park there based on time. If they want to tie up the spot while fully charged or a PHEV simply wants to top off then they can pay the premium.

+1

I think as long as spots are limited, maybe charging for parking by the hour as mentioned above might be best.
For free parking and charging, they should ideally be for EVs but PHEVs should of course have access. The problem for both though is finding a way to encourage the person parking but not charging to move along.

+1

How will we know which EVs *need* to charge? Require drivers to file a "flight plan" with their planned route like pilots do, and register their miles remaining to prove they do not have a sufficient reserve?

That way the charging station would be kept available in case someone who *truly needed it* comes along.

+1

The problem of maximizing utilization of charging station utilization while ensuring that stations remain available for those who want to charge is essentially the same as maximizing public parking usage. The ideal solution is to charge dynamic rates based on charger availability. Lots of stations free? No cost to charge! Not many free? Keep on raising the rates to keep some minimal number open. There's a number of cities have have tried this dynamic pricing model for public street parking with good success.

Tough to implement without replacing nearly new charging stations with fancy ones that have smarts to do that.

Simplest solution to free up charging stations as others have said repeatedly is to simply charge for parking at a rate slightly higher than what it costs to charge at home while charging less than the cost of gasoline. This will do the most to encourage use of the stations while minimizing needless hogging of stations. Adjust the rate and perhaps setting maximum time limits as appropriate. And of course - add more charging stations wherever possible!

BTW - a great example of free EV charging gone wrong is LAX. Look at these threads on PriusChat and MyNissanLEAF to compare responses of the two communities:

Stopped by LAX for a charge...terrible! - PriusChat Forums
My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Chargepoint at LAX... the only way to fly.. almost

 

[bonnie]

I guess there is an inherent philosphical difference..I believe in free charging where an EV station is the lure to shop at a business , where as you see charging as a business opportunity.

Your motivations may be to meet new people, mine are to get from point A to point B.

Wow, not sure how you reached those conclusions regarding what I think and my motivations. I have never stated that I see charging just as a business opportunity and there should not be free chargers. Nor have I implied that my motivations are 'to meet new people' (as cute and feminine and air-headed as that sounds). I actually drive from point A to point B, just like you … and, just like you, I’d like to do it in the most efficient way possible. My goal is the same, I just happen to have a different opinion on how to reach that goal.

Even though I'm sure your intent was not to trivialize some of my points, that's how it seems.

 

[smoothoperator]

Wow, not sure how you reached those conclusions regarding what I think and my motivations. I have never stated that I see charging just as a business opportunity and there should not be free chargers. Nor have I implied that my motivations are 'to meet new people' (as cute and feminine and air-headed as that sounds). I actually drive from point A to point B, just like you … and, just like you, I’d like to do it in the most efficient way possible. My goal is the same, I just happen to have a different opinion on how to reach that goal.

Even though I'm sure your intent was not to trivialize some of my points, that's how it seems.

Not trying to trivialize your points at all, a lot of my friends who have EV's get pretty excited when someone asks them about the car or they are given an opportunity to talk about it. They actually look forward to meeting and chatting with people when charging.

This sharing concept seems highly YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)...Just not sure that it is the 100% solution to these very real charging problems on the horizon? Its a great solution when you are dealing with nice people, but what happens when people do not want to share? What if their vehicle is towed because they are not plugged in? There has to be a tighter framework other than just asking nicely or leaving a note telling someone they can charge (IMO). Not trying to trivialize I am just asking some very real questions and concerns that I have about your sharing plan.

 

[DuncanWatson]

In general with the current infrastructure I wouldn't go anywhere besides work, RV parks and highway rest stops along designated electric corridors and expect a charger to be there. I doubt I would be a risk of needing a tow due to not getting a charger spot at Walgreens. So this is largely theoritical for me. Plus I would be more likely to camp out at a charger then to call for a tow. I have an ereader and can wait out most people.

In the end we will either have to make EV charging spots ubiquitous or regulate their usage similar to handicapped spots. There is a legitimate government interest and signs and markings would have to be standardized. Not all charging spots would become regulated but those using the proper signage would be in this scenerio.

If marked EV parking and chargers were legislated then I see a similar special license plate being required and limits to plug in vehicles with support for the standard connector noted in the legislation. For ease of administration I doubt it would cover more than the fact of usage of the spot and the rule that said vehicle be plugged in. In many cases this would be enough and the edge cases of plugged in and topped off could be handled by talking to parking attendents or the business who controls the parking. I forsee some announcements over store speakers "Owner of red Telsa with plates XXXYYY please report to the front and move your vehicle"

 

[mattjs33]

Smooth, why are you not demanding that Nissan help build charging infrastructure? Do they not build the Leaf, a pure EV which is heavily dependent on access to charging? Shouldn't they bear some responsibility to ensure there are enough charge points avavilable for the cars it sells? Or is it that you've never been blocked from charging by a Leaf? It appears that only the PHEV guys earn your ire by having the audacity to already be using a free charger when you need it. So it's Toyota's responsibility to ensure you are always able to plug in? Should they build enough chargers for all of the plug-ins they have on the road, at all of the locations they might potentially show up at?

I can sum up your views as follows:

1. All public charging should be free.
2. Somebody else should pay for the chargers.
3. Particularly producers of PHEV's.
4. If I arrive at a charging station (perhaps even one provided by said producers), there had BETTER NOT be a PHEV plugged into it.
5. Therefore someone needs to make sure that there are enough chargers to suit my needs, and there better be specific rules stating who gets first priority to use them (me), because I DO NOT want to share.
6. Or I will take my ball and go home.

 

[JRP3]

Nissan has been setting up charge points.

 

[dsm363]

Isn't Nissan doing that or helping to drive installation? No other cars use Nissan's DC fast charging plug in the US and they are pushing a DC fast charging network. Also, most Nissan dealerships have installed J1772 chargers (some of those open to the public). Smoothoperator's main point is valid. If Toyota floods the market with PiPs and the Volt is a huge success, the charging network will be overwhelmed and pure EVs will have their access to a limited charging network limited even more. Since EVs can't continue on their journey without charging while PHEVs can, this is important.
PHEVs are an important step forward and they along with BEVs help move us away for oil based transportation.

 

[mattjs33]

Nissan has been setting up charge points.

Ah. Well then. Never mind! :redface:



See, I learn something every time I come here.

 

[daniel]

Have you ever been in a situation where you needed a charge but were unable to due to a non ev vehicle being parked in an ev spot? If you have not it would be hard for me to explain it .

I plan my driving so that I will not need to use public charging. Because if another car is there before me, and I cannot plug in, it's all the same whether it's a Leaf, a Volt, or a PiP. Until there is plentiful charging, I just don't see public charging as an answer. If I cannot be sure of finding a charger, I don't plan on using it. I drove a Zap Xebra for four years. If I had to drive farther than its 40-mile range (aftermarket battery pack) than I took the stinker.

Nobody is claiming to be better, I am just claiming that some cars that are parking in EV spots are not EV"s and do not really need to charge. It is far more likely that an EV would need to charge compared to an PHEV.

What about an EV that does not really NEED to charge?

Lets go with your scenario though, say the goal is really for "reducing total amount of gasoline consumed." How much gasoline will be consumed when a PiP driver is plugged into an EV charging station and, a Leaf driver that tried to use that station is unable to charge and is forced to be towed home/dealership etc? Which scenario would consume more gasoline? Please advise.

Now you are being disingenuous, because what I said is that there are MANY reasons for providing charging for electric cars.

BTW, as I've said several times on this thread, I am all for the employment of methods to discourage the use of public chargers by people who don't need them, and the occupation of charging spots after the charge is done. Your dynamic fee structure is a good one that I had not heard of before. I like it. I suggested smart meters that would increase the cost of parking significantly after the charge is complete (with a reasonable grace period).

We live in the real world, and we have to coexist with other people. I've been trying to make the point that everybody thinks they deserve special treatment, and quarreling will not settle anything. We are a teeny tiny minority, and the lawmakers will not be persuaded by your arguments. They won't see this as an issue of "I need to get home." They'll see it as an issue of "Why did you buy an electric car if you need to go farther than X miles?" For all your arguing that the PiP does not need and cannot benefit from public charging, PiP drivers want to charge, and they and Volt drivers can be good allies in the push for public charging. -- Or you can make enemies of them by insisting that they don't have the right to use public chargers because you might pass by and want to use the charger.

And, BTW, I know of PiP owners who will plug in any time there's a charger available, because they want the owner of the charger to see that it's being used, so that hopefully they'll decide it's worth their while to install more. If you asked these folks to let you charge, they'd be happy to let you. Rather than laws and tow trucks. what we need is a culture of cooperation where people do like Bonnie does, and leave a phone number on their car. "If you need this plug more than I do, phone me and I'll move."

This conversation reminds me of the sea gulls in Finding Nemo. "Mine mine mine mine mine!" It's only yours if you paid for it. In that case, you get to say who can or cannot use it.