Feature request -- USB audio from phone

[Knightshade]

Then why bother with the sound system at all? It's a fantastic well designed sound system it just seems odd to limit it and no it isn't the minority otherwise there wouldn't have been a thriving home and car stereo business for decades.

Uh... nearly all the folks who spent $ on home and car stereo upgrades owned their own music for those decades.

Those folks are all happily playing full-quality FLAC audio right now on their Teslas. I have been since I got mine.

The small minority is people who care a LOT about high quality audio yet somehow don't actually own any audio.

That's a TINY minority- see the specific #s I provided earlier in the thread.

 

[Zacster]

A Raspberry Pi, a $39 device, running Linux can support UPnP/DLNA, Airplay and a whole host of other protocols without breaking a sweat with multiple software packages. Also my Firestick running Android supports it as input. Just put Volumio on a Tesla and problems are almost* all solved. But Tesla has "not invented here" syndrome and won't put any third party apps on.

*Apple iOS doesn't support UPnP but it can do Airplay The latest licensed Airplay supports hi-res but the free implementations only go to 16/48. Good enough if I could get it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

When I plug a USB dongle in to my USB-C Samsung phone, I can plug in a USB headset. That's audio passthrough.

That's why headphones are going USB-C too.

It's a pretty standard feature. It just passes the raw audio stream to an external DAC like headphones. That's all.

That's USB-C, we are talking about standard USB here, such that it can work on devices with micro-USB or some other connector that changes to a USB-A connector, like the iOS users would use. Many Tesla don't have USB-C ports in the first place.

Also USB-C Audio support is a complete mess right now, with some using analog (there is no DAC in the dongle), some using proprietary implementations (HTC).

Don’t Bother With USB-C Headphones (For Now)

The headphone jack is fast disappearing from high-end phones and even bigger devices like the new iPad Pro. So it’s time to head out and get a decent pair of USB-C headphones, right? Not so fast.

www.reviewgeek.com

I'm glad my current phone still has a headphone jack so I don't have to deal with that mess.

 

[Aphelion]

I'm glad my current phone still has a headphone jack so I don't have to deal with that mess.

I've had literally no issue, common things like headphones just seem to work.

This isn't rocket science and I haven't heard anyone complain about USB-C devices.

Although yes I primarily use Bluetooth with my phone, lossless audio over Bluetooth is standard for me now (LDAC), it's technically very easy to do.

As for USB-C, pretty much any PC USB headset I've tried works fine.

 

[Knightshade]

Although yes I primarily use Bluetooth with my phone, lossless audio over Bluetooth is standard for me now (LDAC), it's technically very easy to do.

Someone should tell Apple how easy it is.

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

Bluetooth connections aren't lossless

FYI- LDAC isn't as good as you seem to think it is either-and is not lossless

The ultimate guide to Bluetooth headphones: LDAC isn't Hi-res

Sony’s LDAC has risen to popularity as the audiophile-grade Bluetooth codec. Can LDAC match the quality of wired 24-bit/96kHz Hi-Res audio?

www.soundguys.com

Our testing found that:

LDAC simply isn’t capable of passing Hi-Res content unaltered, and falls far short of wired 24/96 equivalents.
The 990 and 660kbps bit rates are about as good as CD quality, but quickly lose fidelity above 20kHz.
Smartphones rarely pick the 990kbps option when connecting to LDAC equipment.

and

the bottom line is that Sony’s LDAC technology doesn’t really provide true Hi-Res audio over Bluetooth. Technically, the 990kbps version of the codec reaches all the way to 48kHz (and is the only codec able to do so). However, its resolution and noise floor are nowhere near 24 bits, and are worse than 16 bits above 15kHz.

and

Furthermore, the codec pushes Bluetooth’s data speeds to such limits that reliable connections for “Hi-Res” are far from guaranteed. Even 660kbps will struggle in less than ideal environments.

Ultimately, LDAC users are likely to spend a fair bit of time listening to the 330kbps version. Unfortunately, the available resolution and 18kHz cut-off frequency are objectively inferior to CD quality, Qualcomm’s aptX, and SBC.

Regarding being lossy-

LDAC (codec) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

LDAC is a lossy codec

You can get lossless if you switch to lower-res music obviously but that kinda misses the point.

Lastly of course, the decoder for LDAC is proprietary so Tesla would also need to pay Sony money to put it their cars.

 

[Aphelion]

Well lossless or damn near for anything up to CD quality, the difference is noticeable.

The point being HD audio is not bandwidth intensive. Over Bluetooth or USB.

There's no valid technical reason for Tesla to restrict audio quality like this.

 

[Knightshade]

The point being HD audio is not bandwidth intensive. Over Bluetooth or USB.

There's no valid technical reason for Tesla to restrict audio quality like this.

Again, Tesla would need to pay Sony to be able to include the Codec in question for every car they build- it's a proprietary license required by the receiving device- so that's a valid economic reason not to do it.

Further, the link I provided suggests that in some cases the Sony "HD" codec sounds worse than SBC, which the car already supports.

And either way neither BT codec sounds as good as actual full HD lossless directly off a USB key, which the car already does.

 

[Zacster]

I wouldn't care how they implement hi-res, usb, wifi, a direct connect app to a hi-res service, whatever. But they've done NONE of these and blocked any attempt to do so.

I'm still thinking there must be a way to spoof an MSD USB drive and stream through it on a Raspberry Pi or maybe an Android phone.

If Tesla offered an upgrade that cost $$$ I'd even consider it, depending on how much.

 

[Knightshade]

I wouldn't care how they implement hi-res, usb, wifi, a direct connect app to a hi-res service, whatever. But they've done NONE of these

Yes they have. You even listed it. USB.

FLAC or other formats, from a USB stick, gives you full-quality lossless audio.

It sounds awesome BTW.

 

[SVMike]

The VAST majority of americans still don't pay for HD music streaming services. In fact only about 25% of them pay for ANY streaming subscription at all.... (75.5 million out of a population of about 330 million as of 2020)

75M seems quite a high number considering that most people share accounts within their families...Maybe 2 to 4 people per account.
Or is the real number more like 25M that get shared to 75M?

 

[lotusland]

There is no point in reasoning with knightshade. Tesla is a worldwide brand and Spotify alone has 165m paid accounts worldwide. We have five users on our paid account. None of us have purchased a CD in more than a decade. We don't even own a CD player at home or in any vehicle. The FLAC-on-a-drive thing is for people with static music collections and lots of free time, at best.

 

[Knightshade]

There is no point in reasoning with knightshade.

I'm sorry you find facts so unreasonable.

Tesla is a worldwide brand and Spotify alone has 165m paid accounts worldwide.

Spotify isn't an HD music service. AND it's already available in your Tesla via the native interface.

Good job entirely not understanding the discussion

 

[lotusland]

I'm sorry you find facts so unreasonable.




Spotify isn't an HD music service. AND it's already available in your Tesla via the native interface.

Good job entirely not understanding the discussion

I started this thread, and the/my request was for a USB connection, not for "HD music". Spotify offers a 320kbps option -- which I use -- and it sounds much better than Bluetooth offers. That is why I want a wired USB connection. So yes, I understand the discussion, in fact I started the discussion. I also hold 30+ patents related to audio devices.

I had you on my ignore list once before and for some reason I let you back in. You are a mental drain to many on this site.

 

[Knightshade]

I started this thread, and the/my request was for a USB connection, not for "HD music". Spotify offers a 320kbps option -- which I use -- and it sounds much better than Bluetooth offers. That is why I want a wired USB connection. So yes, I understand the discussion, in fact I started the discussion.

Sorry if I needed to explicitly indicate that when I said you didn't understand the discussion I obviously meant "the discussion going on NOW, in 2021, rather than just in your original post from 2018"

Again- the recent discussion, in fact the quoted post in my reply that you yourself quoted was about HD music.

Here it is a second time since you somehow didn't notice it originally.

I hardly listen to music in the car because it sounds so bad. And like most people I don't have an entire library of music on a USB stick.

I keep asking this over and over, why have they made it impossible to get hi-resolution music into the system? It is capable of playing it, why can't we input it?

When I'm done with this car I won't buy another Tesla unless this changes.

I even bolded the part I guess you didn't see.

He's specifically asking about hi res music, but incorrectly suggesting "most people" don't own their own music.

Hence I replied pointing out that HD streaming is a very niche market. Far smaller than the # of folks who own physical music (that you can play as HD as you like via USB)- and also only a tiny fraction of the streaming market as well (where if you're fine with "normal" quality you already HAVE spotify and slacker native on the car)




But good news (maybe) for even that niche group- Tidal soon maybe

https://twitter.com/x/status/1437465723966787597

 

[Zacster]

He's still on my ignore list. It just isn't worth arguing.

 

[SVMike]

It is odd how so many people think that their method of using a product/device should be how everyone else uses it

 

[Aphelion]

It's pretty simple. We just want audio pass-through without low quality codecs and Bluetooth mangling it along the way.

The mangling is noticeable.

Spotify HD is perfectly fine even if a quarter the bit rate of native CD quality.

But USB audio would just avoid all the mangling and let the user decide how much or little mangling they want.

But is it possible to fix in software? The apps sure but not sure if Bluetooth codecs and USB audio can be enabled over software update.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It's pretty simple. We just want audio pass-through without low quality codecs and Bluetooth mangling it along the way.

The mangling is noticeable.

Spotify HD is perfectly fine even if a quarter the bit rate of native CD quality.

But USB audio would just avoid all the mangling and let the user decide how much or little mangling they want.

But is it possible to fix in software? The apps sure but not sure if Bluetooth codecs and USB audio can be enabled over software update.

Again, it's probably never happening until Android Auto / Car Play comes and even that is very low priority for Tesla. It's not as simple as toggling a switch (especially when considering support for both iOS and Android and the various phones out there).

I looked this up a bit. It is just as I am saying, there is a special iPod mode that iOS devices can use (it's not non-proprietary). That's why even really old receivers are able to work with USB for iOS devices. This mode obviously doesn't work for Android devices, and I'm not sure if there are any Linux based support for this kind of mode for Tesla to use.
iPod and iPhone Compatibility List | Kenwood

For USB 2.0, Android uses a completely different USB Audio format that was introduced in 5.0. The Accessory version is suggested to not be used due to low adoption, leaving only the host mode, which requires a OTG cable with a female USB-A, then you would have to buy a USB male to male cable. Not sure how well that works.
USB Digital Audio | Android Open Source Project
And as pointed out, audio support was abandoned for 8.0.
Android Open Accessory Protocol 2.0 | Android Open Source Project

For USB-C, I suppose the car can try to emulate a headphone jack handshake (with some place in menu to toggle that), but as pointed out previously, the support among different devices may be very different. I don't believe any android devices by default present themselves as audio devices when plugged into a computer, so something has to be done to address that (as above the USB Audio selection was abandoned for 8.0).

I think things Tesla can do the quickest is enable toggling higher quality for the streaming services, adding more high quality streaming services, especially now with the recent update to enable always on Wifi (which addresses the bandwidth concern for Premium Connectivity). Also perhaps more Bluetooth codec support.

 

[Zacster]

Supposedly, according to NotaTeslaapp.com, Tidal is imminent. Whether it is implemented with higher res or not is a different question.

 

[lotusland]

Paid Spotify does not offer the higher bit rate option (320k) so I don't see why another streamer would. That higher bit rate is more than sufficient IMO.

To be clear, Spotify via a phone of desktop has an optional setting for a higher bit rate.