I'm somewhat surprised the DoE loan lets them build it out of country. The whole point is to encourage jobs in country. I certainly wouldn't have wanted my congressman to authorize loan to prop up jobs in some other country.
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Fisker Karma
- Thread starter vfx
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From the DOE website (DOE-Loan Programs Office ATVM):
I suppose it doesn't actually say the jobs would be US jobs.
It's the ATVM (Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing) loan program. So manufacturing is certainly part of it. Most of the money is supposed to be for the Nina, and certainly we likely would never have heard of the Nina nor would Fisker be trying to set up manufacturing in Delaware if not for the loan program. What they've managed to do, however, is argue to use $169 Million of the loan for engineering and design work on the Karma which was done in the US. If they never finish the Karma, there will never be a Nina.
Only the Karma will be manufactured in Finland (since logistically at the time -which also predated the lionshare of the DOE loans- the Karma was conceived it made sense to build the vehicle in Finland) the Nina etc will all be US built products. Also most of the parts in the Karma are US sourced.
Again, Fisker has always planned to build the Karma in Finland. This was before they announced the Nina in a bid for that DOE loan (in fact in response to the loan program). This is essentially the same as when Tesla was criticized for getting a DOE loan to make cars in England.
ABC actually misses the main story which is the Karma's abysmal EPA numbers. At any rate, this is sadly turning out as I predicted. Fisker faltering is seen as "yet another Solyndra." Lets hope they can get their act together for the good of the industry.
ABC actually misses the main story which is the Karma's abysmal EPA numbers. At any rate, this is sadly turning out as I predicted. Fisker faltering is seen as "yet another Solyndra." Lets hope they can get their act together for the good of the industry.
So Fisker had linked up with Quantum Technologies to get the "Q-drive" technology that is the basis of the plug-in hybrid drivetrain they are using.
Reading back through old Quantum info I see one of their "claims to fame" is efficiency improvements for better mileage.
*but* keep in mind that they had been working on military vehicles which (IMO) are notorious for having poor efficiency to start with.
For instance, working to make an armored < 10MPG military vehicle get a 50%+ MPG improvement by using fuel cells is a lot different than trying to improve gas automotive MPG numbers where a lot of effort has already been done trying to get "conventional" autos to have the best possible fuel efficiency.
I can see a disconnect where Quanta might have said to Fisker "see what we can do for the military?" and having Fisker mistakenly think it would translate directly to similar improvements for road cars.
Also, watching the above video it strikes me that the Quantum prototypes (being compared to the 'Humvee') are smaller, lighter vehicles which would help with their efficiency.
It isn't really a fair comparison if you do away with the massive weight of the armor plating of the vehicle you are trying to improve upon.
Typically, road cars are already fairly weight optimized. Quantum could come along and say "see we made something a lot lighter than a Humvee with some of its' features."
But they have a harder time making their hybrid technology fit in a road car without making it weigh MORE than the equivalent conventional road car they are trying to improve.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That's why most of the loan is for the Delaware plant for the Nina. $169.3 million goes to US engineering & design of the Karma. Fisker has plenty of US suppliers, and as long as they can guarantee 100% of the money was used on the US side and only to support US jobs, the DOE doesn't seem to have a problem with that. Fisker himself said as much in the linked article (that none of the money went to Finland).
It's similar to the $100 million Tesla got for the powertrain facility. The RAV4-EV will be assembled in Canada after Tesla ships the powertrain up there. Tesla might be doing something similar for the Smart ed and the A Class EV.
In both cases, you can say the loan is going to help a car that isn't "built" (with built meaning final assembly) in the US. The only difference is Tesla is using the loan to build a US facility to manufacture US made components to be exported out (as a third party), while the $169.3 million is tied up directly to the Karma and it's not that clear how much went to "manufacturing" facilities. Being a private company, overall it'll be harder for the public to see how Fisker operates.
Sarah Palin on the case: Twitter
And Fisker's response: Newsroom - Fisker - Press Release
Jay Carney Responds To Nascent Solyndra-Esque Electric Car Scandal | Mediaite
This could pan out well for Fisker. It could even be deliberate obfuscation. After all, there is no new news and this is all distracting attention from the EPA numbers.
If done right they can even turn it around on Palin.
And Fisker's response: Newsroom - Fisker - Press Release
Jay Carney Responds To Nascent Solyndra-Esque Electric Car Scandal | Mediaite
This could pan out well for Fisker. It could even be deliberate obfuscation. After all, there is no new news and this is all distracting attention from the EPA numbers.
If done right they can even turn it around on Palin.
ljbad4life
Member
I think that the Car and driver disproved its own assertions that it's the Karma's weight that is a major factor and the efficiency loss with a series hybrid. It's summoned up in one simple statement "we saw just 23 mpg behind the wheel of a 3080-pound Pontiac Solstice GXP coupe powered by the same engine." So a car that weights 2k lbs more only loses 3 mpg! The ICE was never efficient to begin with, a 3 mpg losses for moving an extra 2k lbs is proof that the series hybrid setup is fairly efficient.
IMO It's the off the shelf ICE's that are the weakpoint to a series hybrid. Of course the Karma Could have used a good weight loss program.
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That's an interesting point. It does suggest that the series hybrid setup is at least more efficient than the direct drive approach - could that be the effect of regen adding efficiency that the Solstice can't? What would the efficiency of the Karma have been had they used a through-the-road hybrid or something like the volts setup?
Edmunds Inside Line - 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP
I would lean more towards the highway MPG number for comparison purposes. Now we see that extra 2000 lbs coming into play, series hybrid or no...
I was saying this in the Transport Evolved chat room last week. Why on earth did they choose such a crappy ICE to start with?
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