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Free Speech and Climate Change Skeptics & Deniers

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How is that counter evidence? They WERE sued... not every lawsuit is going to win... I disagree with the judge, that WASN'T satire...
There are going to be grey areas of disagreement... but also Black and White areas where someone is OBVIOUSLY WRONG and OBVIOUSLY serious about it.
Your assertion (the part I quoted) was disproven by the Top Gear incident with the Roadster.

1. Tesla didn't consider it satire.
2. Top Gear did -- or at least claimed such.
3. Court agreed with Top Gear - satire.
4. NWDiver doesn't consider it satire.

Conclusion: Declaration of "satire" can be difficult. Even more difficult to legislate. Especially with penalties like Raffy was originally suggesting. ;)
 
Your assertion (the part I quoted) was disproven by the Top Gear incident with the Roadster.

1. Tesla didn't consider it satire.
2. Top Gear did -- or at least claimed such.
3. Court agreed with Top Gear - satire.
4. NWDiver doesn't consider it satire.

Conclusion: Declaration of "satire" can be difficult. Even more difficult to legislate. Especially with penalties like Raffy was originally suggesting. ;)

Agreed... I would venture to guess that most people in general would not consider that satire... that's why we have courts...

Having some of these knuckleheads on Faux News say under oath to a court, 'CO2 doesn't cause warming? No... I was just joking... that was satire... CO2 OBVIOUSLY causes warming' would be effective enough.
 
Having some of these knuckleheads on Faux News say under oath to a court, 'CO2 doesn't cause warming? No... I was just joking... that was satire... CO2 OBVIOUSLY causes warming' would be effective enough.

So is referring to the highest rated cable news channel as 'Faux News' protected speech or are you making a judgement based on personal opinion or scientific fact?:tongue:
 
So is referring to the highest rated cable news channel as 'Faux News' protected speech or are you making a judgement based on personal opinion or scientific fact?:tongue:

Did I say something quantifiable and falsifiable? I'm only proposing we place restrictions on saying something quantifiably false... CO2 DOES cause warming and levels ARE rising... ~40% since 1900. Opinions are and always will be protected speech. Facts and Opinions are not synonymous.
 
Some here want to pretend that the argument is over some of the proven facts here, like CO2 is a greenhouse gas. I haven't heard any media outlets trying to claim that it's not.

What I hear is that some media outlets are trying to point out that the predictions made in the past 3 decades have not come true, and therefore we can't trust those who have uttered them. RAHN: The global-warming apocalypses that didnt happen - Washington Times

Yet others point out that while they agree that man's activities have contributed to CO2 production, that there is dispute over how much may be man-made versus other natural effects. Others point out that the effects of higher CO2 levels aren't known well, and that the many predictions made by scientists are being disproven daily (see the article I posted). Others point out that the temperature records aren't rising at the rates the models suggest they would, and therefore the models can't be trusted. Yet others say that even if the levels are rising, that anything we do today won't stop it and we're all doomed to extinction, so may as well live it up while we can rather than drive more people into poverty. Each of these IS skepticism and does pose a number of questions we should all be willing to entertain.

Some would like to silence these people by throwing them in jail for daring to point out that the oceans didn't dry up by the year 2000, because it doesn't fit his belief that we need to pull out all stops and spend every dollar available on the matter, regardless of whether we know the outcome of redirecting a huge chunk of the economy.

There is still room for skepticism on the policy implications of addressing the matter. I agree that people should be held accountable for demonstrably false statements - so make your case for fraud. See if you can prove standing, then prove damages, then prove cause. That's a high bar given the topic at hand.
 
Some here want to pretend that the argument is over some of the proven facts here, like CO2 is a greenhouse gas. I haven't heard any media outlets trying to claim that it's not.

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*Viewer Discretion is Advised*

Video #3 ~1:44

There is room for 'skepticism' surround the effects and the timing of AGW... NOT the REALIY. I will always support the right for people to voice their own opinions... but you DO NOT have the right to your own facts.
 
That kinda cuts to the heart of what this thread is about... why should corporate dis-affiliation make something wrong right? wrong is wrong. If I don't work for Pfizer but I wrote a book about the miracle of ibuprofen how is that any less damaging than if pfizer had paid me to do it?

This campaign of opinions = facts and everything is equal is absolutely insane... people are dying... it is putting our future at risk and it must stop.

I'm not arguing that there's not currently a distinction between fraud and publicizing something false... I'm saying that distinction needs to be dissolved.




The FTC didn't exist in 1776.5 either... are we not better off knowing that there's clinical evidence supporting the claims of medicine we buy? (with the obvious exception of homeopathy). There is a line between fraud and speech... erasing that line won't make us any less free than when the government banned 'snake oil'... but it will make our future more secure.

Please don't conflate selling a product or providing a service with free speech; as pointed out to you, selling something is inherently regulated by other laws (consumer protection etc.) and does not fall under free speech. I am glad you recognize that a non-affiliated person can provide 'false' information without punishment (not fraud legally).

You're saying the distinction needs to be dissolved... Have you really thought this through? As Bonnie said this would require rewriting/removing the First Amendment at the very least: striking out Freedom of Speech as we know it. You keep repeating that 'no one is advocating for removing free speech' but in fact, you are doing exactly that by redefining the meaning of freedom of speech. Again, free speech makes no distinction between 'opinion' speech and 'fact' speech. You want to change that meaning. No one's buying it...
 
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Satire is Satire... I think most of us can tell when someone is joking and when they're trying to convey information...


In 1776 - ~1900 it was 'buyer beware' you had the constitutional right to say anything you wanted about the product you were selling... how did that change?

This isn't as 'outlandish' as it seems... if I disparage someones business publicly with false accusations they have the right to sue me for libel. What has been proposed is that we expand these libel laws to include harm to health and general welfare. If a climatologist witnesses the publicizing of information he knows to conflict with factual information he should be able to press a libel suit in court just as if he were the owner of that business.

So Oprah could be sued for her segment on vaccines with Jenny McCarthy in a trial no different than any libel case. Or at minimum barred from presenting that information again without the evidence to support their claims.

Are you claiming that satirists are not trying to convey information? That may be the case, or it may not. A lot of satire/jokes can be more truthful and meaningful than 'serious' media outlets (case in point: George Carlin, Daily show, etc...). And no, 'most of us can tell' is not a valid legal or moral argument for what is acceptable speech (satire or not).

You are 'expanding' the definition of 'libel' WAY beyond any reason. Libel involve 'false' claims that tarnish a business or person's reputation negatively. You are saying that libel should be redefined to mean something extremely broad: "expand these libel laws to include harm to health and general welfare". What does that mean? It means that the government needs to regulate speech when it decides (rightly or wrongly) that a certain issue is 'harmful' to public 'health and welfare'. This sounds exactly like totalitarianism: in China criticizing the party is a threat to public safety (revolts, protests etc...), in Saudi Arabia -> homosexuality is harmful to public health and morality. You may say these are extreme examples, but in fact, the lack of rights in these countries directly stems from a lack of Freedom of Speech & expression. Less extreme examples include several European ('first world') countries where the right to criticize certain religions is eroding (so called 'hate speech' restrictions). You can see where I am going with this. The government (ANY government) cannot be trusted with such power. This is why the First Amendment is so important.

Let me give a more concrete example: instead of climate change, lets go with some religious claims. I think that some religious claims are ridiculous and more importantly very dangerous to public health and general welfare. A belief in an after-life and Armageddon can lead people to do insane things. These are beliefs which are strongly held by some US congress members, who can authorize wars. This is no laughing matter and I am entirely serious: In some ways the increased possibility of nuclear war brought upon directly from these beliefs is a serious threat to public safety. Does this mean we should now ban these ideas because they are not scientifically provable? Absolutely not.

Another example: what about people that claim that eating animal products everyday is good for your health and increases life span? I am sure this claim is false (as backed up by scientific consensus), and I am sure those who believe these claims may be 'harmed' (perhaps more harmful than climate change). Does this mean the government should regulate what can and cannot be said on this topic as well? I'd wager you would say yes.

Which topics are important enough for censorship and which are ok? Where does this end? This is what people were talking about when they criticized you and Raffy for your Orwellian ideas.
 
This is definitely the way we are headed within 20-30 years and no one seems to talk about it. Perhaps it's too much of a threat to the current corrupt system to even talk about it.

As a transition to direct representation, I've been pushing the idea of electing mindless surrogate reps in the US House.

I don't think there is anyone in this thread who lacks understanding of man-made climate change or the difference between denialism and skepticism. That's not the problem people have with this horrendous idea, it's just an inherently un-American concept that most people reject out of hand.

Our world is not black and white, so even corrupt system constituents do not bear full responsibility for the system state. Corrupt systems evolve into the corrupt state like a crooked tree that grows under heavy winds into a funny bent shape. These systems are simply a reflection of a society's maturity level. Most citizens, wittingly or unwittingly and to various degrees, participated in building such a system. Once a corrupt system is entrenched, it becomes very difficult to operate outside of the system. It perpetuates itself.

I am so grateful for the connected devices. They bring transparency that forces people to abandon dubious behaviors. These devices act like amplifiers that promote particular values.

One of my favourite pastime entertainments is to check Rupert Murdoch's twitter account. Twitterati are dishing it out to him, mercilessly. No doubt he deserved every single mean tweet that had flown his way. In connected, transparent society, money and power can not buy what most people strive for - respect.

Power in the old world was derived from a financial status and from the attained position in society. Such position was often attained by a birth.
Power in a new connected world will be derived in a different way. Most likely it will be derived from earned respect.

My long rumble finally brings me to a conclusion that the best the government can do to fight most of the society ills, including climate change deniers, is to provide free internet connectivity to all. Twitterati and infinite other new forms of instant communication will do the rest.

It might take 20 years as you say, but it is unstoppable.:smile:
 
I changed a little bit my mind thanks to the discussion on this subject. No jail but very good fines.

Sorry Raffy, but that doesn't change anything very much. The 'punishment' is not really the debate here: what is at stake is whether or not certain speech should be illegal. If you read my recent posts in this thread you can see my opinion on the topic, but basically the government has no business regulating people's speech about anything. It is a slippery slope that gives the government way too much power.

A few posts back you were arguing that 'media' should be censored (fines or jail), but individuals shouldn't. That is not a logically or legally justifiable argument: the 'media' is simply public information provided by 'individuals'. There is no fundamental difference between the media and individual people. Youtube, TMC, Facebook etc... is the media. And it's people.
 
A few posts back you were arguing that 'media' should be censored (fines or jail), but individuals shouldn't. That is not a logically or legally justifiable argument: the 'media' is simply public information provided by 'individuals'. There is no fundamental difference between the media and individual people. Youtube, TMC, Facebook etc... is the media. And it's people.

Don't agree. People discussing each other have not the power to bias public opinion like the media have. This is the main point of this thread IMO.
 
Don't agree. People discussing each other have not the power to bias public opinion like the media have. This is the main point of this thread IMO.

What don't you agree with specifically? I am simply saying that "people discussing with each other publicly" == "Media". These two entities are one and the same. Youtube/Facebook/TMC etc... is people discussing with each other. Youtube/Facebook/TMC etc... is the 'media'. What in your opinion is incorrect about what I said?
 
@falconeer

You were saying that there is no difference between the media and individual people. IMO one thing are the media and another thing are individual people.

Of course people discussing with each other publicly = media

You just contradicted yourself. In the first line you are saying "one thing is the media and another thing is individuals". Then you say people discussing with each other publicly is the media... Which one is it?
 
You just contradicted yourself. In the first line you are saying "one thing is the media and another thing is individuals". Then you say people discussing with each other publicly is the media... Which one is it?

If I discuss with you in my apartment is one thing. But if I discuss with you on the radio or the television is another thing. Now is it clear?

You are free to say what you want but you cannot mislead public opinion on such a delicate matter like the Climate Change/Global Warming issue using the media. This is the spirit of this thread. (Sorry I have to go)
 
If I discuss with you in my apartment is one thing. But if I discuss with you on the radio or the television is another thing. Now is it clear?

You are free to say what you want but you cannot mislead public opinion on such a delicate matter like the Climate Change/Global Warming issue using the media. This is the spirit of this thread. (Sorry I have to go)

Yes, now it is clear. You want to prohibit individuals from expressing their opinion in public by punishing them or the host (e.g. you make a YouTube video against climate change and it goes viral. Are you saying the creator of the video should be punished? or should YouTube be punished for allowing the video on their site? Either way, the result is the same, you are punishing individual freedom)

You are saying: "you are free to say what you want" -> but only if you say it quietly and in private, so as to not 'mislead' the public.

So really, you can't say anything you want, and you are in favor of prohibiting individual freedom of speech.
 
Yes, now it is clear. You want to prohibit individuals from expressing their opinion in public by punishing them or the host (e.g. you make a YouTube video against climate change and it goes viral. Are you saying the creator of the video should be punished? or should YouTube be punished for allowing the video on their site? Either way, the result is the same, you are punishing individual freedom)

You are saying: "you are free to say what you want" -> but only if you say it quietly and in private, so as to not 'mislead' the public.

So really, you can't say anything you want, and you are in favor of prohibiting individual freedom of speech.

This matter has been discussed long ago in this thread. I suggest you to read all the thread. There is a difference between individual freedom of speech and misleading statements on the Climate Change/Global Warming issue.