The big issue with FSD is that it is not real yet and people don't really need FSD. They need a way to work, school and the grocery store. Some may want it or love the idea of it but it but every time I tryout AP I realize how far we have to go to get to true FSD. For example, I wanted to see what AP would do while driving in my housing development where the roads are not lined. There are just those reflectors/markers in the center of the road to help at night. So, at night the car struggled but it was actually able jiggle itself back and forth as it saw the light reflectors in the road. It wasn't pretty but it was doing it. I tried the same exercise in the daytime and it failed miserably. No lines and lack of headlight reflection on the markers and it doesn't know what to do. I just don't know how we go from this to a FSD robo-taxi fleet. I hope I am wrong and Tesla can pull this off reliably and but it just seems too much too fast. Selling futures, gotta love it.
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FSD going up 8/16
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golfpilot
Member
At this price, it makes 0 sense for someone to upgrade from EAP to FSD. $11k for FSD functionality when it is being sold for $6k on a newer, cheaper, car is just throwing money down the drain. Especially when FSD has 0 features EAP doesn't have so far. I'd bet the house FSD robo-taxi fleet doesn't happen before my warranty is up. They will offer FSD upgrade to EAP owners for $2000 again, after it materializes, just wait for it.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
Did you miss Elon's tweet about this last night? $3k discount on FSD for those with EAP: Elon Musk on Twitter
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, they won't. They got huge backlash over that, publicly admitted it was a mistake, and quickly pulled that price.
They will offer it for $3000 though, pretty much nowish. Only reason it hasn't been that price all along is apparently Elon didn't notice they got the pricing wrong. See his tweet from yesterday.
Offering FSD for current EAP owners for $2k or $3k when the new features actually exist makes sense and would be worth it to me. Right now the $9k vs $11k total cost for cars bought without/with EAP is annoying because they affirmatively represented on the purchase page that the EAP features would cost $2k more, not $2k less, if bought after delivery. This is different from just dropping the price at a future date when you had made no statements about what the future price would be in order to incentivize people to buy.
Until the new features are available, I have little interest in paying even $2k for something that they think will exist at some point in the future. My current EAP features are both good enough and bad enough that I thought that was a bad gamble when they had the sale.
Until the new features are available, I have little interest in paying even $2k for something that they think will exist at some point in the future. My current EAP features are both good enough and bad enough that I thought that was a bad gamble when they had the sale.
"Ish" would be the key word. I just checked and it's still $6k.
$2k would make more sense given their prior advertising. That would mean FSD would cost $7k for people who bought EAP on delivery, $9k for people who didn't, maintaining the $2k price hike they advertised for not buying it at delivery.
I think they’ll announce/release some capability (stoplights, whatever) and then give people 1-2 weeks to purchase before price jumps. Otherwise you’re betting on the come.
I had to pay $3k for AP in March, just before it became a standard option and not an included upgrade. At the time, I wasn't in for FSD at $5k. Wasn't when they raised it for a short time up to $7k and back to $6k. I still won't be a buyer at $7k if it goes up next month. Seems only EAP buyers are ever mentioned to get it at a discount and not those who paid separately for AP.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I've thought about this as well. I'm also in the small group of owners who paid $3,000 for AP.
EAP + FSD after discount = $5,000 + $3,000 = $8,000
AP + FSD = $3,000 + $6,000 = $9,000
Standard AP + FSD = ~$2,000 + $6,000 = ~$8,000
If Elon's considering a $3,000 price cut for EAP purchasers, maybe he'll consider a $1,000 discount for pre-Standard AP.
It's one thing to treat people who purchased at two different times, based on two different pricing structures, differently. My issue is with inducing people to pay $5k for a set of features at the time of purchase, based on the statement that those same features would cost $7k later. With it costing $6k to upgrade if you hadn't purchased EAP and $3k to upgrade if you had, that means that people who didn't buy EAP are getting a price cut by waiting to add the features, whereas they essentially promised the reverse. Even if only $3k to upgrade from EAP, that means that people who bought EAP at the time of purchase will be paying $8k to have EAP + FSD features, whereas the people who bought the exact same car on the exact same day under the exact same terms and conditions but didn't purchase EAP will be paying only $6k to have EAP + FSD features.
Should be only $1k to upgrade (the differential still doesn't work, but if it was only $1k to upgrade, it would be hard to make any argument that you're worse off by having relied on their advertised pricing structure at the time of purchase) -- if I'm understanding it correctly that people without EAP only have to pay $6k to get FSD now, and not $3k to get AP plus $6k to get AP. If it's the latter, then the upgrade should be $2k. In no event should it be $3k (and certainly not $6k).
(With the caveat that for those few people who paid the $7k for EAP after delivery but before FSD was announced, they are paying $10k for FSD. But the only thing they were told/promised was that they would pay $2k more than people who bought EAP at the time of purchase, and that will remain true in all cases.)
Should be only $1k to upgrade (the differential still doesn't work, but if it was only $1k to upgrade, it would be hard to make any argument that you're worse off by having relied on their advertised pricing structure at the time of purchase) -- if I'm understanding it correctly that people without EAP only have to pay $6k to get FSD now, and not $3k to get AP plus $6k to get AP. If it's the latter, then the upgrade should be $2k. In no event should it be $3k (and certainly not $6k).
(With the caveat that for those few people who paid the $7k for EAP after delivery but before FSD was announced, they are paying $10k for FSD. But the only thing they were told/promised was that they would pay $2k more than people who bought EAP at the time of purchase, and that will remain true in all cases.)
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And since we are all beta testers anyway it should cost little to nothing until the software is ready.
IMO, this is why it makes more sense to let owners subscribe to features instead of charging for software that is not ready yet. I would subscribe to a monthly fee for TACC, Autosteer and maybe NoA but not interested in the AutoPark and Summon tricks right now. As for the games, call it the Arcade pack or whatever and charge $2 month for folks that want to play Beach Buggy 2.I really never gave this that much thought before the recent tweets -- I initially thought that EAP people should be grandfathered in, since FSD wasn't even an option that could be purchased then, Tesla advertises that your car continues to improve after you buy it so it would be consistent with that advertising, and the overall price of the car has come down, so making people who bought in 2018/early 2019 pay an additional $2k - $6k (or any amount, really) is not a good way to get customer loyalty. Then I accepted that the only thing we were grandfathered into was the advanced summons, and that FSD would require a hardware update, so it makes sense that we don't get grandfathered in for a hardware update. So I became content with the fact that I at least paid less for the current features than people are currently paying and I would wait and make a decision when the features were released. I should be happy with the announcement of the price decrease to $3k (if in fact that happens and it's not just Elon's musings with no plan attached), but instead it's got me focusing more on it.
The other problem is his tweet that prices will continue increasing. If he wants to put his money where his mouth is, he'll offer a guarantee to refund the difference to early adopters if a lower price is ever offered. If the deal is a $3k upgrade price and that contractual guarantee, he'd have my money today.
And now I'm replying to Elon's posts on Twitter. Sigh.
The other problem is his tweet that prices will continue increasing. If he wants to put his money where his mouth is, he'll offer a guarantee to refund the difference to early adopters if a lower price is ever offered. If the deal is a $3k upgrade price and that contractual guarantee, he'd have my money today.
And now I'm replying to Elon's posts on Twitter. Sigh.
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Birdman325
Member
He may have tweeted about a $3K discount for EAP owners, but my account still shows CDN$7,900 for FSD. (And I have EAP).
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
...what? FSD has been for sale for years as an upgrade from EAP.
For example when I bought my Tesla in 2018 it was 5k for EAP and 3k for FSD on top. So 8k total.
A few months ago they discontinued EAP entirely, and moved most of its more advanced features under the FSD umbrella .. and leaving a new "AP" that only did TACC and single-lane-autosteer. Combined these initially cost.... 8k. Same as before.
Eventually those made AP "standard" but raised the price of the car to largely compensate, and just sold FSD for 6k...(going up to 7k soon).
Based on Elons recent tweet it seems that they made a mistake in applying that "new FSD" price to old EAP-but-not-FSD owners... and those guys should still be able to get FSD for 3k like they could have back before these changes.
He said this would keep happening when he announced the previous price hike, and for this one is pointing out it'll happen about the same time as a new feature becomes available too.
As I said elsewhere I expect it'll go up again when they announce the stop sign/red light/city street stuff is available.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
While certainly there will be some brief hype-driven price hikes, I expect that the price of FSD will generally trend down, especially after the level 2 city stuff is released and all the limitations become clear. Elon of course wants to raise the price, but unfortunately for him he does not get to decide that. Personally I am sort of tempted by the $3k price, but figure I’ll pick it up for $2k when the opportunity arises. It’s still kind of a waste of $2k, as I anticipate it will be fairly useless, but it would give me a feeling of inclusion in the drama and excitement and chaos that unfolds with FSD, and that has some value I suppose.
Hopefully they’ll clear the market of the $6k/$3k payers relatively quickly, and then I’ll be next in line! Guess we’ll see how it turns out.
It bothers me that early adopters that paid up for EAP still have to pay anything extra for FSD. That just doesn’t seem right for folks that were paying for futures. I am on the wait and see with FSD. If it takes 3 years I may want to put that money toward a new car vs. dumping more money into this one. There is a big difference between software features assisting the driver and trusting the system to drive you around autonomously. It will be interesting to see what the market will pay for this gap in usability.
Why cain't they just stick with a business model for the sake of consistency peace of mind for customers. Since I ordered my car in May, paint colors prices increased and changed from "free" from black to white, the basic model price went up I believe $450.00. FSD prices increasing. Talk of Tesla's car future prices being way more expensive due to RoboTaxi's business ideas. Ordering basic model 3 cain't be done online anymore, only the more expensive upgraded models, etc, etc.
Those of us who did not purchase EAP are still the worst off with the price break down. We purchased December 2018. To upgrade our M3D to FSD, we have to spend $10,010 more than a new customer today. Total punishment for earlier buyers. I could purchase the Performance version now and have a $100 lower monthly payment. I can no longer advocate for Tesla purely based on the lack of support and customer advocacy for earlier buyers.
I don't see why a fair deal can't be offered. AP+FSD for $6k as it essentially is now. Tesla would rather bet on a 10% chance of getting $9k than a 75% of getting $6k.
I don't see why a fair deal can't be offered. AP+FSD for $6k as it essentially is now. Tesla would rather bet on a 10% chance of getting $9k than a 75% of getting $6k.
You underestimate how frequently Tesla has changed its pricing structure and what it sells. When I bought in early January 2019, buying FSD was simply not an option at the time of purchase. It very well may have been an option just a month before I bought (when different options/prices were in fact in effect) or a month after I bought (when they again changed options/prices), but in January 2019 it was not for sale at the time of purchase.
I knew that at some point in the past they had sold a FSD that had no current features, but I didn't know what they were charging for it and what existing features people were paying for separately at that time. (I actually assumed it was sold at a time when some EAP features were still in development, and those that paid for FSD got all the new features as they rolled out, so the price at that time would include some EAP features so it wouldn't be a direct comparison - I thought they had made more changes to the autopilot offerings than simply dropping FSD.) So if it was $3k on top of what they charged for EAP features, then yes absolutely, I agree charging $3k to upgrade from EAP is appropriate. That said, as of the time of this post, it's still $6k to upgrade.
At even $3k though, I'm still likely to wait. I don't trust Elon's word that the price will continue to rise or that autonomous city driving will happen by the end of this year.
ETA: It seems the new feature will be advanced summons, which EAP people already have included, so hopefully that means he won't increase the price for EAP people to upgrade in August. That said, the general concept of increasing the price when the product you're selling has improved is obviously reasonable, but still inconsistent with Tesla's track record so I'm in the wait and see camp.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, it was, but you had to ask for it.
They moved it "off menu" for a few months but it was always for sale.
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