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Newb

Member
May 13, 2014
432
62
Germany
Since I've grown sick and tired of the fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) continually appearing in the media about Tesla Motors or Elon himself, I'd like to suggest to collect and track FUD and related authors in a dedicated thread. In the short term, the thread could provide for a collecting basin of posts related to FUD articles, commentaries, videos. In the longer term this basin would also allow for cross-country comparison of FUD occurences and tactics and a potential impact on Tesla sales and popularity in different national markets across the globe. It would also allow for a quicker identification of authors who either "don't get Tesla" or simply tend to spread FUD around.

I'll start with a commentary/column published today by German weekly news magazine "Stern" (which is one of the biggest news magazines in Germany).

Title: The miracle firm is running out of juice
Abstract: Tesla and Elon Musk have had a fantastic start. But now, during day-to-day business important investors don't want to follow any longer. They do not trust the visions and cash on.
Published: October 28th, 2014
Link: Tesla: Elon Musk springen die Investoren ab - Auto | STERN.DE
Author: Frank Janßen
Verdict: clearly spreading FUD about Tesla (Daimler & Toyota portrayed as "important investors", The "Model D" was "just an S with AWD", S was a toy for the super-rich, S buyers would get it only as "a fourth car" after they had got "a Mercedes, a Lambo and a Porsche Cayenne in their garage", Edmunds.com had found "numerous defects", S had a disappointing "half of the claimed range" "under normal conditions")

If you find FUD like this, please fill in in a similar fashion, if possible/convenient. That would allow for a big FUD table in the long term.
 
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Reactions: glide

iadbound

Member
Apr 24, 2014
648
16
No. VA
You'll have to add practically every article about Tesla to this list.

I keep wondering about the utility of refuting every incorrect data point or assertion in Tesla-related articles. I recognize some member of the forum try hard to correct these articles because they care so much about Tesla and/or their investment in the company, which is great. However, it doesn't seem as though the refutations have done anything to improve the quality of reporting, and I don't see that it will because most reporters (not all of course) aren't particularly interested in doing their homework. They are focused on getting stories out the door and ahead of their deadlines.
 

chickensevil

Active Member
Jan 2, 2014
4,139
263
Virginia, United States
You'll have to add practically every article about Tesla to this list.

I keep wondering about the utility of refuting every incorrect data point or assertion in Tesla-related articles. I recognize some member of the forum try hard to correct these articles because they care so much about Tesla and/or their investment in the company, which is great. However, it doesn't seem as though the refutations have done anything to improve the quality of reporting, and I don't see that it will because most reporters (not all of course) aren't particularly interested in doing their homework. They are focused on getting stories out the door and ahead of their deadlines.

From an investor standpoint it is very important to be able to see through the False reports and negative stories that have no real foundation in their claims. From a consumer/advocate standpoint the ones that are important would be those which turn people off of buying the car or keep them from buying the car. For example all the car fires were things that fall in that category. It was certainly something that needed to be discussed, but not something that needed to be blown way out of proportion to the degree where people thought this car was some unsafe deathtrap (I talked with people personally who because afraid of the car because of the false reporting here).
 

iadbound

Member
Apr 24, 2014
648
16
No. VA
I agree it is important to see through false reports. I was simply suggesting that it will be a never ending effort, and reporters aren't likely to change their ways no matter how many times they are called out on this forum.

BTW-- 2,000+ posts now. Time to make you a moderator?:biggrin:
 

MassModel3

Member
Aug 19, 2014
907
256
MA South Shore
Do you really think it's a good idea to have forum members gather an abundance of FUD all in one place so that people who want to slander (libel?) Tesla have a single place to look for all the best juicy FUD?
 

chickensevil

Active Member
Jan 2, 2014
4,139
263
Virginia, United States
I agree it is important to see through false reports. I was simply suggesting that it will be a never ending effort, and reporters aren't likely to change their ways no matter how many times they are called out on this forum.

BTW-- 2,000+ posts now. Time to make you a moderator?:biggrin:

Fair enough, I was just throwing out the use outside of the investing side of things.

PS: I don't think it works that way... and even if it did, I don't think I would want to be. We have a decent set of moderators here already ;)
 

Rheazombi

Member
Dec 17, 2008
618
2
Boston
On a similar note, a wiki of sorts of FUD talking points and their refutations would be educational and useful. Obviously multiple threads on this site address FUD in various ways, but to have it all in one place where you can browse by topic would be awesome.

I say this mostly thinking about conversations I've had with people in person or online. They tend to say the same FUD phrases, over and over (not usually out of maliciousness, moreso out of ignorance or media-influence), and it would be nice to have concise, pithy answers to each of their misconceptions. I've gotten pretty good at this for some things, like "how do you charge the car if you don't have a garage/driveway?" or "don't these things catch fire?" but some others are more complex and I don't have great answers yet: "what is the total carbon footprint of manufacturing a tesla vs manufacturing a gas car?", "isn't it just better to drive a fuel efficient gas car?", "do some states restrict the use of the internet while driving?", etc.

If we could have a thread OP or wiki where we can continually add FUD and appropriate educational responses to it, that would be soo helpful. (Couldn't find such a thing while searching). I would start one myself but I know someone else could do a better job :p

FWIW: this blog post is a good start > A Comprehensive Review of Leading Tesla FUD Touchpoints - Blogs - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum
 

Doug_G

Lead Moderator
Apr 2, 2010
17,882
3,390
Ottawa, Canada
Just thought I'd mention... and this seems to be the most relevant place. I had a major case of FUD on another car forum that I participate in. Research on TMC really helped identify the major flaws in the study this guy was quoting. TMC is awesome!
 

mknox

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2012
10,103
1,894
Toronto, ON
Just have to get this off my chest:

Today I toured a Toyota manufacturing plant. They were very well organized with a visitors center, a multimedia presentation and a tram tour of the plant. Very professional and well done... except: At the end, the tour group gathered in a auditorium for some Q&A. One of the questions was around hybrid vehicles which the presenter answered, but then went on, unsolicited, to say that they are often asked about electric vehicles. He said that Toyota had determined that electric vehicles were impractical and not applicable to winter conditions and so the company was not going to focus on them. I would have loved to have engaged in a debate with him, but was there with a professional group and decided to hold my tongue. It's one thing for Toyota to focus on their hybrid system which they've invested a lot in to, but with some of the ads I've seen and what is clearly a company policy to discredit EVs is downright shameful in my mind.

There... I feel better now!
 

Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
8,769
22,193
San Diego
It's almost as if they are trying to justify a bad decision or something. In truth, as the worlds largest car company, Toyota can do whatever it wants, and it will hardly affect them. Until it's too late (but that won't happen for decades).
 

AB4EJ

Member
Feb 25, 2015
775
394
Tuscaloosa, AL
Just have to get this off my chest:

Today I toured a Toyota manufacturing plant. They were very well organized with a visitors center, a multimedia presentation and a tram tour of the plant. Very professional and well done... except: At the end, the tour group gathered in a auditorium for some Q&A. One of the questions was around hybrid vehicles which the presenter answered, but then went on, unsolicited, to say that they are often asked about electric vehicles. He said that Toyota had determined that electric vehicles were impractical and not applicable to winter conditions and so the company was not going to focus on them. I would have loved to have engaged in a debate with him, but was there with a professional group and decided to hold my tongue. It's one thing for Toyota to focus on their hybrid system which they've invested a lot in to, but with some of the ads I've seen and what is clearly a company policy to discredit EVs is downright shameful in my mind.

There... I feel better now!

Toyota has never made a secret of the fact that they do not believe in the fully electric concept; they prefer to push the hydrogen fuel cell. While this has a nice space-age feel to it, its economics are problematical: I have read that it costs something like $250,000 to install a single hydrogen filling station, to say nothing of the infrastructure to supply hydrogen to the stations. Compare this to the already existing infrastructure of electrical distribution, and the cost per supercharging port.
 

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,395
14,407
West Vancouver, British Columbia
I have read that it costs something like $250,000 to install a single hydrogen filling station, to say nothing of the infrastructure to supply hydrogen to the stations. Compare this to the already existing infrastructure of electrical distribution, and the cost per supercharging port.
That is the approximate cost for Tesla to build a Supercharger site with around 8 chargers.

The cost to build a hydrogen fueling station is around $2 MILLION and that can only fuel one car at a time and then the system has to re-pressurize.

Toyota is deluding itself with the fuel cell car idea, in part because the Japanese government is heavily subsidizing that approach by building hydrogen fueling stations so Toyota doesn't have to.
 

roblab

Active Member
Jul 15, 2008
3,678
3,196
Angwin (Napa Valley) CA
Just have to get this off my chest:

Today I toured a Toyota manufacturing plant. They were very well organized with a visitors center, a multimedia presentation and a tram tour of the plant. Very professional and well done... except: At the end, the tour group gathered in a auditorium for some Q&A. One of the questions was around hybrid vehicles which the presenter answered, but then went on, unsolicited, to say that they are often asked about electric vehicles. He said that Toyota had determined that electric vehicles were impractical and not applicable to winter conditions and so the company was not going to focus on them. I would have loved to have engaged in a debate with him, but was there with a professional group and decided to hold my tongue. It's one thing for Toyota to focus on their hybrid system which they've invested a lot in to, but with some of the ads I've seen and what is clearly a company policy to discredit EVs is downright shameful in my mind.

There... I feel better now!

@mknox: Same tune, different words. What really burns me lately is that all these cheap EVs want the public to build out charging infrastructure. I get emails daily wanting to push the public utilities commission into putting in a few thousand Level IIs or a CHAdeMO in the city so that all these people who "couldn't afford" a real car with real range can get home after going to Costco. Why don't they pressure BMW or Nissan or Kia to spend money on building their own charging network. "Oh, that would cost too much" And the buyers claim they can't afford to pay more that $30K tops. Of course this is unfair competition. Tesla builds out a better network, hands it out free, offers it to any OEM for the cost of what they will be needing it, but Toyota finds it's cheaper to get the Public to give it to them.

Like Toyota. They're not spending money on refueling infrastructure. Just one more way they can't compete with Tesla.

If all you can afford it a bicycle, I guess you buy a bicycle, and then hunt for public funds to get it upgraded to an electric bike later, and then get public funds to get en route charging! "Hey, I only spend $35 on this bike, and I can drive all over town" If all you can afford is an 80 mile battery, get the public to put in chargers so you can get to the mall and back home. If you have a poor choice on motive power (fool cell), get the Public to jack you out of your bad decision.

I want to opt out of this program, but I don't know how.
 

SmartElectric

Active Member
Jul 9, 2014
2,523
2,400
Toronto,Canada
What really burns me lately is that all these cheap EVs want the public to build out charging infrastructure. I get emails daily wanting to push the public utilities commission into putting in a few thousand Level IIs or a CHAdeMO in the city so that all these people who "couldn't afford" a real car with real range can get home after going to Costco.

Hold on friend.

I own a city commute EV (Smart ED) and I've never asked, nor cared if there is public funded charging infrastructure. I refuel at home like the rest of us here almost exclusively.

One time I recharged at a public parking, and the payment for parking covered the $2 in electricity I used on L2.
Another time I recharged at a Mercedes/Smart dealer L2.
And I've recharged at a L2 provided by a local company who's owner drives Leaf.

No other times did I depend or care about public charging, and all of those chargers above either cost money, or were funded privately.

So : A "cheap EV" driver doesn't want what you claim I want. Just to keep that in perspective.

Note that I bought $70K worth of cars (Mercedes SUV and Smart ED) at the same time a few years ago when the Tesla superchargers were non-existent in Ontario Canada.
Since then, Tesla have made a lot of progress, which has made me far more interested in having only electric cars in our family.
 

v12 to 12v

Active Member
Jul 10, 2012
1,070
26
This is supposedly from Reuters! Notice that the article is from Detroit. I bet that is where their "sources" are from too.

Talk about making huge assumptions while not knowing Tesla's intent or plans! Tesla must expand those positions and get management up to speed now because exponential growth is coming. It will be interesting to see if they change the title because they got in trouble.

Tesla reorganizing global sales team after missing targets - Yahoo Finance
 

roblab

Active Member
Jul 15, 2008
3,678
3,196
Angwin (Napa Valley) CA
Tesla in the news!

Tonight on our local news, they reported a F*R* on TESLA road (which happens to be near Fremont) and then announced that they might need to "close Tesla" ... road, that is.

Oh, I can hardly wait for the autobots to get hold of this world shaking news. I expect the stock to drop tomorrow. :biggrin:
 

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