Full Charge Not Recommended by Tesla on Regular Basis

[richkae]

I'm not sure what "regularly" is so I'll make some guesses.
If you do a 200+ mile drive twice a week, you probably will drive the car at least 30000 miles but more likely 35000 miles per year.
Ignoring other factors, that alone should push you to strongly consider the 85kWh car because of the unlimited mileage battery warranty.

If you are not already in a hybrid or an econobox, 35000 miles per year is likely to be costing you $5000 to $8000 per year in gasoline.
If so, your convenience is probably worth the extra $8000 or $10000 for the 85kWh car.

Another thing you should consider is installing your own Level 2 charging along your route, you could possibly install 1 or 2 of them entirely at your own cost for less than what you spend on one years gasoline. ( If you just install Nema 14-50 outlets, you could install many )

 

[sp4rk]

My understanding is that the 85 kWh and 60 kWh packs have the same number of cells, but use different variants of the battery cells, and then the 40 kWh pack uses fewer cells.

But I don't believe I've seen official information on the topic.

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Do you know why? US regulations or technical reasons?

No idea. I specifically asked Tesla for a friend of mine. No, no and no.
Perhaps I should qualify my statement. I mean Tesla has told me that they will not do offer it in the future, but I guess they could always change their minds.
One problem I do see is legal? The VIN is tied to the battery size, is it not?

 

[jomo25]

While no official word has been made by Tesla, I believe it has been owner proven that the 60 weighs about 150-200 lbs less than the 85. This has led to speculation that the 60 simply uses less cells than the 85.

 

[hvb]

I doubt that. Seeing that they have the 'battery replacement program' (meaning they can actually remove the battery and put a new one in), and the fact that they state on their facts page that it is possible to upgrade to a larger battery:


IMHO I think that they will indeed offer this upgrade path in the future. I think they reason that various Tesla people have said that this is not true is likely due to just trying to convince people to spend more money now than later. I also haven't seen any official documents saying this won't be possible. Only speculation and blog posts. Their fact sheet seems like the most official doc I've seen related to this topic which states that it will indeed be possible in the future.

According to the bulletin board on the official Tesla forum, they will not upgrade battery packs. When it comes time to replace my battery, can I exchange it for a different size battery pack? | Forums | Tesla Motors

 

[yobigd20]

According to the bulletin board on the official Tesla forum, they will not upgrade battery packs. When it comes time to replace my battery, can I exchange it for a different size battery pack? | Forums | Tesla Motors

yea I know about that blog post, but I don't consider that an official response since it conflicts with the facts page and I have no idea who that person is.

 

[markb1]

While no official word has been made by Tesla, I believe it has been owner proven that the 60 weighs about 150-200 lbs less than the 85. This has led to speculation that the 60 simply uses less cells than the 85.

Do you have a link? There's been some talk here about weighing similarly-configured 85- and 60-kWh cars, but I didn't think anyone had actually done it, yet.

 

[Kaivball]

I wish my salesperson told me BEFORE I purchased that car that Tesla does not recommend fully charging the battery. Standard charge only gets my 60Kw battery to approx. 189mi, I need the full 240 regularly. That would've influenced my buying decision.

Where did you buy the car? Who did you talk with?

Why do you think the 60kw can go 240 miles???

Misleading title: full charge is not recommended to do regularly, is the correct statement.

 

[FlasherZ]

My understanding is that the 85 kWh and 60 kWh packs have the same number of cells, but use different variants of the battery cells, and then the 40 kWh pack uses fewer cells.

I was told by a Tesla service employee that the battery packs all use the same cells, just different numbers of them. The "different chemistry" rumor still floats around, though. I've heard both so many times that I don't know which to believe until a more authoritative source speaks.

 

[kinddog]

there are the same # of cells in the 60 and 85 batteries. but in the 60, some of them are dead or empty (and not wired up).

they did this on purpose so that the weight characteristics would be the same (for handling consistency).

 

[FredTMC]

there are the same # of cells in the 60 and 85 batteries. but in the 60, some of them are dead or empty (and not wired up).

they did this on purpose so that the weight characteristics would be the same (for handling consistency).

not TRUE! 60 has less cells. 60 weighs ~183 lbs less than the 85. These facts came out soon after 60s started getting delivered (reported/discussed in a TMC thread here). BTW, I care about these facts since I have a 60.

Below is text from original post from DDRUZ

60 kwh vs 85 khw - Page 5

Received email confirmation of 60 kWh curb weight and battery cell type today from Tesla:


"The curb weight of the 60kWh Model S is listed at 4464lb. As for the battery cells, the 60kWh uses the same cell type as the 85kWh battery, but less of them."


Recapping the 85 kWh vs the 60 kWh car:
-Curb weight: 4647 lbs 85 kWh, 4464 lbs 60 kWh
-EPA miles per charge: 265 miles 85 kWh, 208 miles 60 kWh
-EPA MPG electric equivalent: 89 MPGe 85 kWh, 95 MPGe 60 kWh
-Battery cells: Both cars use Panasonic 3.1 ah 18650 Li-Ion cells, the 60 kWh cars use fewer.


Thanks.

 

[markb1]

not TRUE! 60 has less cells. 60 weighs ~183 lbs less than the 85. These facts came out soon after 60s started getting delivered (reported/discussed in a TMC thread here). BTW, I care about these facts since I have a 60.

Thanks.

Link please. All I've seen is speculation.

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Nevermind, found it:

60 kwh vs 85 khw - Page 5

Though I would still like to see someone put the cars on scales.

 

[montgom626]

Another thing you should consider is installing your own Level 2 charging along your route, you could possibly install 1 or 2 of them entirely at your own cost for less than what you spend on one years gasoline. ( If you just install Nema 14-50 outlets, you could install many )

Donation? Tax deduction????

 

[inottawa]

Lol. Welcome to the love that is teslamotorclub dthomas!

 

[jomo25]

Fred, thanks for including the link. I knew I read it, just couldn't remember where it was.

Mark, it's not proof, but until someone puts them on scales, it's the most detail we've had.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Standard charge only gets my 60Kw battery to approx. 189mi, I need the full 240 regularly.

If I read you correctly, you need to drive 189 miles regularly; you concluded that the 60kWh (=230 mile ideal range) would cover that distance. I'm sorry that anyone at Tesla didn't drill down on this with you; here's my take:

1. The EPA range for the 60kWh is 208 miles. With a full Range charge and a new battery, you've got a 19 mile cushion (plus the emergency reserve). That's tight.
2. Charging the battery to Range frequently isn't recommended. The standard charge on the 60kWh Model S gives 187 miles of rated range, 2 miles short of your regular drive. Not good.
3. Over time, the battery will degrade somewhat, perhaps about 2% per year. This will make the above margins bite even harder.

My place in Maine is 180 miles from my Boston home, and I did the above math and realized I needed the 85kWh battery. You do, too. Call Tesla and see what you can do before you take delivery.

 

[jomo25]

If I read you correctly, you need to drive 189 miles regularly; you concluded that the 60kWh (=230 mile ideal range) would cover that distance. I'm sorry that anyone at Tesla didn't drill down on this with you;

Where did you get that the OP only needs to drive 189 miles regularly. He/She is noting that a normal (non-range) full charge only yields 189 miles. The OP states that he/she needs 240 regularly. Thus the ridiculousness of thinking a 60 kWh, which Tesla only claims would go 230 miles at 55 mph on a max range charge, would be sufficient.

 

[AMPd]

I don't think any tesla employee would ever say the 60kwh battery can travel 240 miles when even tesla advertises best case scenario of 230 miles.
perhaps it was the 85kwh battery what was talked about, that seems more logical, the 85kwh charges to around 240 standard and 265 range

 

[brianman]

Terminology refresher (for me) for Model S:
- Range charge: 100%, 265mi EPA
- Standard charge: 90%, 238.5mi EPA

What's a "Full charge"?

 

[jomo25]

Terminology refresher (for me) for Model S:
- Range charge: 100%, 265mi EPA
- Standard charge: 90%, 238.5mi EPA

What's a "Full charge"?

"Full" is relative in my post. Its why I qualified it with either range or non-range. your terminology is right. But as we've seen with Broder, not all get those terms.

 

[drdui]

I wish my salesperson told me BEFORE I purchased that car that Tesla does not recommend fully charging the battery. Standard charge only gets my 60Kw battery to approx. 189mi, I need the full 240 regularly. That would've influenced my buying decision.

At this point in history if you need to go 240 miles regularly you need an internal combustion engine. Even the 85 is not going to get you there regularly without anxiety. If you read the articles surrounding the NYT trip or watched the video on You Tube of the people driving to Las Vegas with no AC going 55 (but they made it) you would have seen that EVs have limitations.

The good news is that most people drive well under 100 miles a day and are home every night to charge.

I got the 60 so as to save $10,000 and because my longest usual drive is 92 miles one-way. Even at that ill be pushing it because I like to drive 66 (10% over speed limit doesn't usually get you stopped) and I like to be comfortable. Tesla has a range calculator on their web site where you can increase speed and turn on heat or AC and see how it impacts the range. I think you'll find that 240 miles is NEVER going to be a comfortable distance in any Tesla model. Sorry.

my advice: keep the 60. Get an inexpensive high MPG car for the 240 miles and enjoy the Tesla the rest of the time.

Follow this link:
Your Questions Answered | Tesla Motors

in the summer with the AC on at 65mph on the highway you would barely make it in a 85. In the winter you wouldn't make it.