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Fully off-grid, central England, how?

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WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
9,170
5,338
Suffolk, UK
I'm sure I'm mad, but I'm contemplating a holiday let (restoration project) in the middle of nowhere. It has no services and they would have to come a long way ...

Given current state of Batteries and Mobile Phone, and putting in a borehole for water seems reasonable, maybe its become relatively doable?

Assuming enough PV for Summer Power, what do off grid folk do in Winter? I want something comfortable, not having to try to live off 100W !
 
Go Truly off grid and use candles :) and leave a load of board games. Cooking/hot water/heating uses locally source wood (defra approved of course.......!)

Emergency backup power with a small battery (Anker kind?) that is portable and has a few portable solar panels to charge off. Allows the users to charge phone/laptop/tablet.

Old steel bath with a fire under to heat the water - who need showers.

Leave Bear Grylls book "How to Stay Alive: The Ultimate Survival Guide for Any Situation" on the living room table along with some local takeaway menus.
 
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Go Truly off grid and use candles

:)

I've done camping - the tent Wife and I had included a tiled bathroom with bidet!

So the Bear Grylls look is not very me I'm afraid :)

Emergency backup power with a small battery (Anker kind?) that is portable and has a few portable solar panels to charge off. Allows the users to charge phone/laptop/tablet.

I'd be happy to put a PowerWall/similar in, and enough PV to charge it - but that will only work for 8 or 9 "Summer months". Maybe I just mothball it in Winter ... but I'm curious as to whether there is a way to have power in Winter. Maybe just get a generator for that (given there would be a PowerWall then just need to run Generator when Powerwall < 10%, and fill it up to 100%, then turn the genny off)
 
:)

I've done camping - the tent Wife and I had included a tiled bathroom with bidet!

So the Bear Grylls look is not very me I'm afraid :)



I'd be happy to put a PowerWall/similar in, and enough PV to charge it - but that will only work for 8 or 9 "Summer months". Maybe I just mothball it in Winter ... but I'm curious as to whether there is a way to have power in Winter. Maybe just get a generator for that (given there would be a PowerWall then just need to run Generator when Powerwall < 10%, and fill it up to 100%, then turn the genny off)
Wind turbine?
 
you living there or staying occasionally? If you're just popping over for holiday visits, maybe winter can work. You're less likely to go as often because its cold, and while you don't get much solar, it might be enough to have the house hibernating and limited solar charges your battery up over several days so by the time you visit at the weekend you're good to go?
 
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Wind turbine?

No experience of that, but I've done some reading over the years, and the conclusion of that seemed to amount to "Don't do Domestic sized Wind turbine". But its a nice open site, so no turbulence from trees to worry about.

while you don't get much solar, it might be enough to have the house hibernating and limited solar charges your battery up over several days so by the time you visit at the weekend you're good to go?

Hadn't thought of that, thanks. Would be fine for dash-and-pack if the battery is showing 100% for the weekend :) Bit of a snag for "booked a dog sitter for a weekend away"! But I am doubtful it would be much used in Winter, so it might be that "Use it only If and When" would do.

On that basis a generator would likely be rarely used, and just as backup - which also sounds OK.
 
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You can certainly read about off-grid or "preppers" that do a lot of thought about these things. You can do a lot with solar and some powerwalls although having thought about this a bit a key part of it is how long do need to survive on overcast days? if you have a week of stormy weather do you need to 100% survive that? extra powerwalls can do it but every few days of extra stormy weather gets expensive. You might be best with solar, batteries and a diesel backup generator. Of course you have to maintain everything in working order when you just want a low effort vacation spot.
 
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:)

I've done camping - the tent Wife and I had included a tiled bathroom with bidet!

So the Bear Grylls look is not very me I'm afraid :)



I'd be happy to put a PowerWall/similar in, and enough PV to charge it - but that will only work for 8 or 9 "Summer months". Maybe I just mothball it in Winter ... but I'm curious as to whether there is a way to have power in Winter. Maybe just get a generator for that (given there would be a PowerWall then just need to run Generator when Powerwall < 10%, and fill it up to 100%, then turn the genny off)
As above but select a location with a stream and put in a water powered generator.
 
As above but select a location with a stream and put in a water powered generator.
It's depressing how much stream you need.. fall is more useful than flow and flow can vary do much twixt summer and winter. I have 2 streams. One rages for part of winter but the costs of a generator system and power lines back to the house with zero generation Summer make it wholely uneconomic. The much smaller stream has more potential due to the fall along it's 200yds but would need s pipe running the length to a small turbine and then power line all the way back. The potential generation capacity again makes it pointless. What ya really need is a waterfall.
 
I'd be happy to put a PowerWall/similar in, and enough PV to charge it - but that will only work for 8 or 9 "Summer months". Maybe I just mothball it in Winter ... but I'm curious as to whether there is a way to have power in Winter. Maybe just get a generator for that (given there would be a PowerWall then just need to run Generator when Powerwall < 10%, and fill it up to 100%, then turn the genny off)
well, in reality, if this is off-grid solution (vacation home) means that most of the rime it will be empty during the week. even in the winter, if there is no power usage, PW will load up with the Solar (to some extent). but as mentioned, small diesel geno for those 5 days a year would make a lot of sense.
 
You might be best with solar, batteries and a diesel backup generator

I reckon that will be it.

Generator can top up battery from, say, 10% to 100% and then turn off; enabling generator to run at max efficiency during that time, rather than having to cope with variable load.

Passive Haus is 15w / sq.m. Building is around 70 sq.m. which I make 700 kWh per month for winter heating (cooking is a separate issue), but unlikely to have anything like 100% occupancy in mid winter.

By my calcs 11-ish kW of PV would produce around Jan=300kWh, Feb=500kWh, Mar=700kWh

Would heatpump give me a COP of 3-ish? But that would mean buying a heatpump and a generator ... and presumably a wood burning stove to be cosy. Maybe heatpump justification would be the benefit of summer cooling too.

As above but select a location with a stream and put in a water powered generator.

Slight snag there as it hasn't got one :( But that would be ideal ... although I've always chosen houses on top of hill to avoid flood risk

What ya really need is a waterfall.

:)

I remember vising Chatsworth and reading about the Emperor Fountain (single jet, 300 feet I think). The Duke went to see the Tsar in Russia. who had an impressive fountain. Duke says "Come and visit me next Summer". Gets home and has the workforce dig (by hand) a 6 acre lake at the top of the 400' hill behind the house to provide head for the fountain, and a "big pipe" down the hillside. Nice fountain, but the Tsar did a no-show :)
 
ooo, interesting puzzle!

Assuming you can do enerphit restoration so your heating power costs are minimised, you probably either need to stupidly over provision some solar, or diversify your sources. Wind (TESUP London | Wind Turbines & Solar Panels Manufacturer | TESUP UK, England) or hydro as mentioned are all I can think of?

If you have a water source then building a header pool and running a hose down whatever height you can muster to a generator would probably be a useful source. Unlike most Eco solutions, this does actually compliment other sources rather than stack more summer techs on top of each other.

Solar - you could look at sun tracking so you can maximise the winter capabilities? Also, inhttps://smartflower.com/ is extreme and may or may not still be trading, but lovely idea. Solvus Arc for something with omni-directional panels and less moving parts. If you are off grid and reliant on solar it might be worth the extra £££ for the 30% more efficient new tandem panels? I've also hears of builds that so seasonal heat stores using large water or sand stores? Gravity store by using the summer power to pull a boulder up a hill at the property 😂?

Maybe you need a stove (always nice anyway) with a back boiler for HW in the winter (small water only HP rest of the year)? Some solar and a battery could easily run a frugal existence other than the HW requirement, even in winter. Key calculation to look at (back to old pvwatts) is can you guarantee enough power for kitchen things over an extended bad period in the winter? Backup camping stove in cupbaord for food and heat if you get down to the last 20%?

I'll keep thinking. Going to assume minimal 'infrastructure' in the building if thats OK. MVHR on min turnover. Internet connection. No other servers etc. Think you could manage on a budget of 50w background usage when the place is unoccupied? Forgot about fridge freezer. Current best is ~30w for that, although better when you aren't there opening it all the time..

Assuming worst case of 0 solar is 7 days (looking back at my dec & Jan, there wasn't more than 3 days in a row with 0 solar from my 7kw installed, double that for safety.) At 50w background usage you need 8kwh for that 7 days. Cooking tho at a kw per meal is ~20kwh so you are getting on for needing 40kw of storage to cover the worst case. Or, just don't be there that week ;) 20kw and accepting you aren't staying a full week on the nastiest week of the year might work? In terms of filling up, I averaged 20kw a week over Dec/Jan so mostly batteries would slowly charge up - you would be trading charge speed in weeks vs array size or other sources I guess.
 
Maybe you need a stove (always nice anyway) with a back boiler for HW in the winter (small water only HP rest of the year)? Some solar and a battery could easily run a frugal existence other than the HW requirement, even in winter. Key calculation to look at (back to old pvwatts) is can you guarantee enough power for kitchen things over an extended bad period in the winter? Backup camping stove in cupbaord for food and heat if you get down to the last 20%?

Friends of ours actually cook on top of their wood burner too ... would have been standard practice in the past. If you can take house heating, water heating and cooking out of the energy equation it greatly reduces the requirement for electricity. The only significant draw that's left would be a fridge and that could be as low as 0.3kWh per day for an efficient model (if the internet is to be believed).
 
Assuming you can do enerphit restoration

There isn't enough of the building / roof actually left standing for that, so assume Passive Haus once we gather up the bricks and mortar them back together again :)

Solar - you could look at sun tracking so you can maximise the winter capabilities?

I'll do some maths, but my view of Solar is that, at UK latitude, there just isn't enough insolation to make any difference in Winter, and unaffordable to have enough battery to accommodate a run of zero-PV cloudy days ... so maybe better to just take whatever is generated and stuff it in the battery and have alternative provision (e.g. generator) for when occupied. The PV might provide enough for when the building is unoccupied.

Clearly (I now realise) I need to have a plan for minimal use when unoccupied. e.g. design the wiring so that there are "unoccupied" circuits which can be turned off - big switch by front door!

By the by, when we had our house rewired I wish sparky had offered to separate "essential circuits". We have battery capacity for 8-12 hours outage, but in a scheduled / prolonged power cut I have to go around making sure stuff is OFF. Throwing the breakers on a number of panels which, by design, were non-essential would be a lot easier.

worth the extra £££ for the 30% more efficient new tandem panels
👍
seasonal heat stores

That would be great. I've not come across anything that is ready for mainstream yet. I saw one which took solar-thermal and pushed the heat through ground pipes (used in winter as source for ground source heat pump). The solar-thermal collector was embedded in asphalt roads nearby so, being black, presumably picked up plenty of summer heat. They reckoned that just heating the ground (a few M down) didn't migrate far, and was a benefit in the winter (smaller DeltaT between Ground Source and House than would otherwise be the case, so a better CoP)

But ground source heap pump, for a holiday home that was not continuously occupied in winter, seems unlikely to get through even my Man maths!

Think you could manage on a budget of 50w background usage when the place is unoccupied?

I think this is going to be key. Everything frugal, rather than the modern vogue of megawatts consumed allowing everything to be on standby!

Forgot about fridge freezer

I think "Empty / Off when not there". I think you have to arrive with whatever provisions you need, and not leave anything behind (which might go off / etc. if you don't return when planned). I wonder how that "pint of milk in the holiday home fridge" was after Covid lockdown allowed visiting the place again?!

Cooking tho at a kw per meal

Does an Air Fryer use that much? I wonder about either no oven, or only use oven on sunny days (which probably rules out any use in Winter ... and in Summer I would hope to be dining al fresco rather than using an oven ...)

Or, just don't be there that week

I'll really like to design so that that isn't a requirement. I would prefer that the house can be occupied at any time - so "lend it to a friend", or "let it out" should be viable. Otherwise I could just buy a tent and lend that to my friends for their weekend-away :)

Friends of ours actually cook on top of their wood burner too ... would have been standard practice in the past

Yup, done and enjoyed that in the past; as an option its fine just not keen on it as a solution ... I'd also hate a campervan type holiday.

My inlaws had a holiday place in France. They took all the old frying pans out there, the ones where the non stick was failing. All the old, latterly unloved, chipped and battered crockery and any other WTF castoffs too. No dishwashing machine either. It was blooming hard work when we went on holiday when our primary aim was to relax! Had to mow the grass too when we got there ("mow" as in waist high so top-end beefie strimmer was needed). It was more like a kibbutz!

I think my brief is: Rock-up, enjoy, maximally eco.

OK, useful conversation, thanks all - do pls chip in any other thoughts, or if you disagree. My mind is now pondering how to design the building to have a tiny power draw so that (winter) energy consumption is negligible. The insulation etc. is a given, so space heating/cooling will be a tiny energy consumer.

Switch by the door to disabled all unnecessary power when unoccupied
 
We're not off grid but very rural. Nevertheless a Genny for power cuts, second car in case of breakdowns, wood burner as well as oil as well as air source (in 3 rooms) and still have camping gas stove and bottled water stored despite borehole.
2 each fridges and freezers. No cell service unless ya drives 2 miles or climbs the hill.
I can tell you that cutting and carting wood and cleaning out the burner, dealing with the dust sweeping the chimneys 4x per year etc all gets old faster than me.
Cooking on a wood stove with back boiler is way too slow. The other burner much quicker but unless a simple stew for 2 hours time I wouldn't bother. Even the Rayburn when we had it was a pita.
 
A worst case to ponder... Xmas dinner there with friends?

Also, look at victron devices for your battery controller, much more integrable with different sources, batteries, solar and generators than eg powerwalls etc. AUX channels for other stuff, all pretty flexible. Used in offline hospitals world wide so pretty reliable!
 
Might be worth thinking about your actual objectives here. Is it supposed to be tech-haven retreat, or a rural retreat. What do you actually need to run?

We've stayed in off grid airbnbs, and the log fire and gas stove are kind of the norm. Bring your own usb power bank for phones, and that's about all the electric you need.
Sizing an occasional use building for off-grid winter electric cooking is going to leave massive wastage in the summer. Generators are noisy, and need to be maintained.

If the aim is more zero carbon, spend the money and resources on a house which is lived in 365 days a year, not an occasional use folly
 
I'm sure I'm mad, but I'm contemplating a holiday let (restoration project) in the middle of nowhere. It has no services and they would have to come a long way ...

Given current state of Batteries and Mobile Phone, and putting in a borehole for water seems reasonable, maybe its become relatively doable?

Assuming enough PV for Summer Power, what do off grid folk do in Winter? I want something comfortable, not having to try to live off 100W !
Have a look at Off Grid Family, not sure were they are based in the UK but the guy has a Tesla and charges on a Zappi fully off grid, some good videos on their progress
 
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