Further discussion and analysis on why the yoke is not good

[NeuroRad]

After a short time with the car I actually like the yoke now. I feel it forces me to engage with both hands which is pretty important with a plaid at full tilt imo.

 

[Wol747]

I felt like the model S with the yoke was seriously the most unsafe car I've ever driven. No balance points for your hands for long distances relying on autopilot nearly 100% of the time because manually steering it is so unrealistic. That's why I offloaded it as fast as I could I did not think that that was a safe car. I'll be shocked if safety statistics do not prove that the yoke is a much more dangerous operating system than a steering wheel

I have been surprised that countries outside the US haven't disallowed the stalkless yoke by now. Perhaps they haven't had a chance to evaluate it.
The highway accident rate in the USA is much higher than most equivalent countries and IMO partly because of the lax standards.
OK - I'm not trying to stir things up. I've held US, UK and Australian driving licences: the test for the US one was laughable. In the practical drive I would have disqualified myself at least three times yet the examiner said I "done good". I suppose I didn't actually kill anyone?
The three things about the yoke that IMO are unarguably dangerous are (1) the lack of blinker stalk meaning the control can be anywhere in 360 degrees, (2) The way the "holding position" for want of a better word is constrained and (3) if used in FSD - in its current beta state, anyway - the yoke or wheel can spin back and forth as the car tries to make up its mind where to go. Difficult to hold on to a yoke and a lottery if you have to grab for it when the car decides to ram something.
The other part is that ridiculous way of selecting drive: complex, more software and hardware, the lack of control during back and forth turns and the opportunity to have it do the wrong thing once in a blue moon just when you've got used to it being right.
We will see.

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

That's great that you 'think' that-but drivers who have driven it on track, and benchmark engineers I've talked to mentioned a more variable steering ratio, not 'just' a quicker rack. Since you value scientific data, surely you are open to contrary information as you might just have a situational bias correct? Indeed, one of the worlds most conservative legacy OEMs, Toyota, have adapted such a system for its yoke a drive-by-wire system that enables it to adjust the steering for low-speed situations and sharp turns.

So beyond your 'thoughts' feel free to contribute your data to contradict Toyota engineers. I look forward to hearing about your data.

I think I've offered a whole lot of data in my initial post you might want to read it

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

LOL.

Are you offering data here?

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

You've meshed two different economic operational requirements (flying a plane, driving a car) for your argument. Those two aren't directly comparable. So your 'findings' are flawed.

Please resubmit with just your findings re: round steering wheels vs other automotive applications. Thanks. Toyota however, was far less vague in a press release regarding its yoke some of which directly addressed the issues you listed:

The automaker listed all the advantages of its new steer-by-wire system:

• Lock-to-lock is set at around 150 degrees, eliminating the need to change grips when steering, greatly reducing the burden on the driver for U-turn, garage parking, and on winding roads.
• The steering feeling is improved through independently controlling the steering torque that the driver feels and the steering angle of the tires. Steering characteristics can be changed with drive mode select.
• Blocks unnecessary vibrations from tires and only transmits necessary vibrations such as road information. System controls tire movement to ensure vehicle stability when driving on uneven surfaces or when Lane Tracing Assist is activated.
• One-motion grip provides more legroom, improving driving position freedom and ease of entry and exit.

The new system will launch in the bZ4X next year.View attachment 833130

You forgot to mention: removes roughly 100° of operational points of contact for driver control and comfort. I'm sure this is going to be a lot better than a steering wheel

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

This thread really just needs to die. There's no point to it anymore. People who like the yoke like the yoke. People that don't, don't. Flawed arguments on both sides, but jeez, can it just die already?

I disagree, I think it's an especially important conversation at the present moment

 

[WilliamG]

I disagree, I think it's an especially important conversation at the present moment

Is it so important that it requires yet another thread to beat a dead horse in, versus the myriad of others that already exist? The car has been around over a year. Clearly it's not that important anymore. Clearly people aren't dying because they have a yoke.

 

[ForDesign]

You forgot to mention: removes roughly 100° of operational points of contact for driver control and comfort. I'm sure this is going to be a lot better than a steering wheel

You forgot to mention that Toyotas yoke handle placement position in particular has proven optimal for proper shoulder/elbow/neck alignment according to data generated by a Tier 1 automotive supplier across a large sample of human factor height/weight/reach profile. It’s fun to have access to automotive ergonomic studies at work

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

You forgot to mention that Toyotas yoke handle placement position in particular has proven optimal for proper shoulder/elbow/neck alignment according to data generated by a Tier 1 automotive supplier across a large sample of human factor height/weight/reach profile. It’s fun to have access to automotive ergonomic studies at work

So you're espousing something that hasn't even hit the market yet as if it has some sort of huge proven track record. That's interesting

 

[Plaid to Mod 3]

Is it so important that it requires yet another thread to beat a dead horse in, versus the myriad of others that already exist? The car has been around over a year. Clearly it's not that important anymore. Clearly people aren't dying because they have a yoke.

"Clearly people aren't dying because they have a yoke"

Honestly, this is something very much still to be determined. It's going to take some time and some data points but I think that the yoke will prove to be vastly less safe. If it's harder to drive manually then it's harder to take over with the automated systems in place. Every warning that Tesla gives you as you enable these features mandate that you're ready to take over at any time. If you can't drive it manually as well you can't take over when you need to, that means the system is inherently more dangerous. The data should show this over time as well

 

[chirowolf]

Love the yoke. 2 months and now a traditional wheel seems somewhat old fasion. Much like the lack a physical buttons it is a matter of preference.
I'm pretty sure not many are willing to go back to a Blackberry from an iPhone.
My only qualm with the yoke is the signal location.

 

[ForDesign]

So you're espousing something that hasn't even hit the market yet as if it has some sort of huge proven track record. That's interesting

Again, per supplier data. Would it be more interesting if that supplier services 6x% of the entire industry?

Or would it be interesting that hundreds of thousands of man hours are spent on validating changes to form factors to ensure the injuries don’t occur in all aspects of automotive production to the users, from manufacturing to design to even clay modeling studios?

Perhaps the entire automotive design, validation, and production process, which is 36 months long, includes thousands of required hours regardless of brand-human factor component studies.

Of course, from someone that’s science based per your opening post, you’d perhaps take a beat and look into how automobiles are actually designed, validated and manufactured if you lack any knowledge in that specific area, and merge/re-evaluate your own findings per scientific approach?

But thanks for the subliminal overtures. Now that’s over, feel free to expand what flaws you find in the validation of component design in the automotive industry. Every system can improve, but perhaps you can touch on those points.

Redirecting to your OP and declaring ‘good enough’ isn’t exactly a discussion from a scientific POV. But as I’ve said if the component you are discussing doesn’t fit your particular driving style, I’m sorry, again.

You still haven’t talked/expanded about the ‘big financial hit’ you took on a in demand car you purchased in the middle of a historic used car bubble. Now that’s interesting

 

[ForDesign]

So here are the specific advantages of using a variable steering ratio along with steer by wire (SBW) with yoke steering wheel (Again, Tesla has promised to ‘work on’ this solution-my last employer who pioneered mass production SBW conducted a thousand plus hour design study of a yoke-the project was canned due to cost.)

The system boasts one major benefit: It increases the steering angle at lower speeds in a way that drivers will never need to remove a hand from the wheel to turn a corner or reverse into a parking spot. A steer-by-wire completely disposes with hand-over-hand steering, contributing to what the company says is a safer driving experience.

The new Lexus yoke only needs to rotate about 150 degrees from lock to lock, when the wheels are turned all the way one direction and “full lock” the other direction. A traditional steering wheel and the Tesla yoke require somewhere between two and three full turns to get to this position.

Toyota is one of the most intensive/extensive OEMs in human factor component design and validation per my own experience.

There are quite a few first drive reviews. Rumor has it a few OEMs have various versions of the suppliers yoke design in validation testing, but NM.

 

[Big Toys]

From my "engineering" perspective, machines and devices should be made to work *for* me, to make my task less complicated, and be an improvement upon what I already do or use. From my experience with yokes outside of commuter vehicles, I can't imagine how the loss of part of the steering apparatus makes my task of driving a street car easier, better or more precise to clinical significance. There is nothing a yoke can do that a wheel cannot, either physically or via software. The converse is not true. I can't discern what is gained other than the similar self-satisfaction, if you can remember, of holding a white phone.

 

[ForDesign]

You forgot to mention: removes roughly 100° of operational points of contact for driver control and comfort. I'm sure this is going to be a lot better than a steering wheel

Sarcasm over science. You still haven’t addressed the variable ratio part of the equation. If you do not hold a steering wheel properly, then you might be uncomfortable.

 

[father_of_6]

I don’t agree with some of your reasoning as it seems to fall in the “overthinking it” category. This isn’t brain surgery it’s just driving a car.

To be fair though, more people die while driving a car than during brain surgery.

 

[father_of_6]

I don't know why anyone would want a yoke when clearly, heart shape is the future.

 

[ForDesign]

From my "engineering" perspective, machines and devices should be made to work *for* me, to make my task less complicated, and be an improvement upon what I already do or use. From my experience with yokes outside of commuter vehicles, I can't imagine how the loss of part of the steering apparatus makes my task of driving a street car easier, better or more precise to clinical significance. There is nothing a yoke can do that a wheel cannot, either physically or via software. The converse is not true. I can't discern what is gained other than the similar self-satisfaction, if you can remember, of holding a white phone.

With any change to form factor there’s going to be some who do not want to change adapt. And that’s perfectly OK and common historically.

That bias is not a correlation to ‘sound reasoning’

Is part of it marketing? Of course! This is the automotive business.

We are talking about a over 1000hp family sedan and the steering wheel is the point of issue here? As noted some will not find this form factor suitable-frankly due to poor driving habits. And again that is OK. Such is the beauty of choice.

 

[jebinc]

And the counterpoint thread, for balance.

The Yoke Lover’s master thread! 😀😍🥰😘

Most everyone loves/likes the yoke, but there are a few who find it, “Not for them”. This thread is for yoke lovers alike, to share what they like most and what mods they may have done to improve their yoke loving experience! Me? I added one to my MYP - for consistency on driving format with...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[WilliamG]

And the counterpoint thread, for balance.

The Yoke Lover’s master thread! 😀😍🥰😘

Most everyone loves/likes the yoke, but there are a few who find it, “Not for them”. This thread is for yoke lovers alike, to share what they like most and what mods they may have done to improve their yoke loving experience! Me? I added one to my MYP - for consistency on driving format with...

teslamotorsclub.com

Should just bump all the yoke-hate threads so the mods feel compelled to close the newest ones, like... this one.