Gen 3 Powertrain Speculation (based on current drive units)

[dhanson865]

Actually it is the other way around. A larger electric motor is MORE efficient than a smaller one or two smaller ones. And imagine that the base Model 3 outperforms an M3/4

Only true if you are using maximum power output and/or operating outside the efficiency range of the smaller motor.

There is still an up front cost increase and an all the time weight increase. At lower speeds the larger motor could reduce range by having more additional weight and no significant gain in efficiency.

Imagine a car that is cheaper than a M3/4 :biggrin:

 

[Model 3]

Given identical gearing, a larger motor can be more efficient than two smaller motors. That's not necessarily the case however with different gearing on the two motors.

Especially not when you can idle one motor as desired.

But I see you counting on that the Model 3 will get the same performance out of this new motors. They may be able to scale it to eg 100hp, or 288hp? Or anything in between. The thing we know it that they have a new and more effective motor architecture where they are able to get different performance number out off. How low or high it is able to go, we don't know, but at least down to 188hp and up to 221hp. Probably more in both ends.

My guess is that they will only use this new motor in the Gen-III cars (maybe except the Roadster).

So, how low is the lowest they can have to give the base version an acceptable performance? That where you will find the 2WD base version. (ok, +20% (early rumors was mention about 150hp for the base version, but no, I cant find a link now, so take it only as a rumor)
And how hight will you be able to get with 2 of this new motors? Thats where you find the PxxD. Yes, I guess we are at last on 400+hp maybe more?
Any midt-range version will be in between this two.

...

And I would love to be able to configure the Model 3 as FWD or RWD or AWD But I don't believe it

Eg:
- Pick a motor for the front wheels. [ ] 150hp | [ ] 190hp | [ ] 221hp | [ ] 256hp
- Pick a motor for the rear wheels. [ ] 150hp | [ ] 190hp | [ ] 221hp | [ ] 256hp
*You have to select at least one motor...

 

[gregincal]

So, how low is the lowest they can have to give the base version an acceptable performance? That where you will find the 2WD base version. (ok, +20% (early rumors was mention about 150hp for the base version, but no, I cant find a link now, so take it only as a rumor)

150hp seems way too low to me. The base BMW 320 has 180hp, and this will be a heavier car. I would make a WAG of 200hp minimum for the base model. This is an easy way to make it superior to the 3 series in the same way that the Model S hp exceeds the BMW 528 and 535 specs. 221 seems pretty reasonable.

 

[Model 3]

150hp seems way too low to me. The base BMW 320 has 180hp, and this will be a heavier car. I would make a WAG of 200hp minimum for the base model. This is an easy way to make it superior to the 3 series in the same way that the Model S hp exceeds the BMW 528 and 535 specs. 221 seems pretty reasonable.

Maybe your right. I mostly just trow out some numbers to show that it didn't have to be exactly 188/221. On the other hand - 2x150hp would be more then enough for a none-performance mass-marked dual-drive.

 

[Kevin Harney]

Maybe your right. I mostly just trow out some numbers to show that it didn't have to be exactly 188/221. On the other hand - 2x150hp would be more then enough for a none-performance mass-marked dual-drive.

I would settle for a 221 in the back
with a 188 in the front for the P
and another 221 in the front for the PD

ie..

Model 3 xx 221 in Rear
Model 3 PXX 221 in rear and 188 in front
Model 3 PXXD 221 in front and rear

 

[Yggdrasill]

But I see you counting on that the Model 3 will get the same performance out of this new motors. They may be able to scale it to eg 100hp, or 288hp? Or anything in between. The thing we know it that they have a new and more effective motor architecture where they are able to get different performance number out off. How low or high it is able to go, we don't know, but at least down to 188hp and up to 221hp. Probably more in both ends.

My guess is that 221 hp is right at the top of what the motor can do. And I'm not sure if they can do 221 hp without negatively affecting top speed or efficiency (without being used together with a differently geared second motor). Lowering the hp is of course no problem, the easiest way to do it is to limit it in the software. I can't see any reason why they would do it, however.

My guess is that they will only use this new motor in the Gen-III cars (maybe except the Roadster).

It's certainly possible they will stick to the new motor exclusively, but I think only having around 400 hp on the top spec is a bit low. We might see them roll out a high-power version of the new motor to replace the older 380 hp motor, or they might simply continue using the 380 hp motor. Time will tell.

 

[Model 3]

It's certainly possible they will stick to the new motor exclusively, but I think only having around 400 hp on the top spec is a bit low. We might see them roll out a high-power version of the new motor to replace the older 380 hp motor, or they might simply continue using the 380 hp motor. Time will tell.

221 hk * 2 = 442 hk (hmm... That number reminds me of a muscle car ) in Model 3 is of course not in the same league as TMS P85D. But with electric motor and high torch from 0rpm, and different differential front/rear I think that's enough. And if they manage to get a few more horses out of each motor, it's start to approach 500hk. I do not believe that there is room in the Model 3 for the old motors. If they need more power then what this new motor may handle, they will build a bigger variant of this new motor.

 

[dhanson865]

I would settle for a 221 in the back
with a 188 in the front for the P
and another 221 in the front for the PD

ie..

Model 3 xx 221 in Rear
Model 3 PXX 221 in rear and 188 in front
Model 3 PXXD 221 in front and rear

I think you are confused on the naming convention again. You have a car with two motors without the D in the model name. If they made those models it would be


Model 3 xx 221 in Rear
Model 3 XXD 221 in rear and 188 in front
Model 3 PXXD 221 in front and rear

though I expect the base motor to be the lower HP motor and your mid choice isn't far enough difference from the top choice, doesn't make sense if the power difference is that small might as well not bother with the 3rd config.

 

[Yggdrasill]

221 hk * 2 = 442 hk (hmm... That number reminds me of a muscle car ) in Model 3 is of course not in the same league as TMS P85D. But with electric motor and high torch from 0rpm, and different differential front/rear I think that's enough. And if they manage to get a few more horses out of each motor, it's start to approach 500hk. I do not believe that there is room in the Model 3 for the old motors. If they need more power then what this new motor may handle, they will build a bigger variant of this new motor.

By my estimate you could make the suspension and frame at least 20 cm more compact on each side. If you did this, the Model 3 could be 1.57 meters wide (mirrors folded) and still be able to fit the 380 hp motor. The BMW 3 series is 1.81 meters wide without mirrors. To make the Model 3 the same width as the 3-series you'd need to cut out about 8 cm on each side, which would be easy, to say the least.

 

[Model 3]

By my estimate you could make the suspension and frame at least 20 cm more compact on each side. If you did this, the Model 3 could be 1.57 meters wide (mirrors folded) and still be able to fit the 380 hp motor. The BMW 3 series is 1.81 meters wide without mirrors. To make the Model 3 the same width as the 3-series you'd need to cut out about 8 cm on each side, which would be easy, to say the least.

Yes, I see from that picture that you probably right that they can get room for the old motor in Model 3. It looks here more compact then on the picture I remembered in my head

But still, I don't believe that they will use the old motor on Gen-III.

 

[Kevin Harney]

I think you are confused on the naming convention again. You have a car with two motors without the D in the model name. If they made those models it would be


Model 3 xx 221 in Rear
Model 3 XXD 221 in rear and 188 in front
Model 3 PXXD 221 in front and rear

though I expect the base motor to be the lower HP motor and your mid choice isn't far enough difference from the top choice, doesn't make sense if the power difference is that small might as well not bother with the 3rd config.

Oops . You are correct with the naming. I meant that I would settle for that if I had to. I would prefer a 380 in the rear with a 221 in the front and a higher option of a 380 in the front. But I would settle for this if I had to. I think it would still perform well enough for me.

- - - Updated - - -

221 hk * 2 = 442 hk (hmm... That number reminds me of a muscle car

If you are speaking of the Oldsmobile 442 I was wanting one of them too. Funny bit of trivia is that 442 did not stand for the engine size it stood for 4 barrel carb, 4 disc brakes and dual exhaust.

 

[dhanson865]

Oops . You are correct with the naming. I meant that I would settle for that if I had to. I would prefer a 380 in the rear with a 221 in the front and a higher option of a 380 in the front. But I would settle for this if I had to. I think it would still perform well enough for me.

As long as it outperforms the Prius, Leaf, Volt, Bolt, Spark, etcetera crowd I don't care if it is only 100HP front and 100HP rear. Pick the most efficient motors (cost and range wise) that get the job done faster than the $20K-$30K crowd it will be better than and I'm fine no matter what the 0-60 time or top speed is. Just make sure it's nicer to drive and support supercharging and I'm good.

so the possible lists are

188 hp Model 3 xx 188 hp rear motor
376 hp Model 3 XXD 188 hp front, 188 hp rear motor

409 hp Model 3 XXDY 188 hp front, 221 hp rear motor

442 hp Model 3 PXXD 221 hp front, 221 hp rear motor
568 hp Model 3 PXXDY 188 hp front, 380 hp rear motor
601 hp Model 3 PXXDKH 221 hp front, 380 hp rear motor

Pick 2 or 3 from the list and chop off the Y or KH for the poster that preferred that config and call it good.

 

[igotzzoom]

I don't think there will be quite that many powertrain variations on the Model III. I think there will probably be three.

220 (ish) hp base - rear drive
300 hp - rear drive
400 hp - dual motor, AWD

Possibly a hotter one (500+ hp) down the road, but I think it will launch with at most three basic powertrain variations.

 

[Kevin Harney]

I'd say the same but I would go with the 300, 400, 500 options.

 

[mackgoo]

Oops . You are correct with the naming. I meant that I would settle for that if I had to. I would prefer a 380 in the rear with a 221 in the front and a higher option of a 380 in the front. But I would settle for this if I had to. I think it would still perform well enough for me.

- - - Updated - - -



If you are speaking of the Oldsmobile 442 I was wanting one of them too. Funny bit of trivia is that 442 did not stand for the engine size it stood for 4 barrel carb, 4 disc brakes and dual exhaust.

Actually I think it was 4 barrel, 4 spd, dual exhaust.

 

[igotzzoom]

I'd say the same but I would go with the 300, 400, 500 options.

300 hp for $35,000? I'm in! :biggrin:

 

[dhanson865]

As long as it outperforms the Prius, Leaf, Volt, Bolt, Spark, etcetera crowd I don't care if it is only 100HP front and 100HP rear. Pick the most efficient motors (cost and range wise) that get the job done faster than the $20K-$30K crowd it will be better than and I'm fine no matter what the 0-60 time or top speed is. Just make sure it's nicer to drive and support supercharging and I'm good.

so the possible lists are

188 hp Model 3 xx 188 hp rear motor
221 hp Model 3 xx 221 hp rear motor

376 hp Model 3 XXD 188 hp front, 188 hp rear motor
409 hp Model 3 XXDY 188 hp front, 221 hp rear motor

442 hp Model 3 PXXD 221 hp front, 221 hp rear motor

568 hp Model 3 PXXDY 188 hp front, 380 hp rear motor
601 hp Model 3 PXXDKH 221 hp front, 380 hp rear motor

Pick 2 or 3 from the list and chop off the Y or KH for the poster that preferred that config and call it good.

I don't think there will be quite that many powertrain variations on the Model III. I think there will probably be three.

220 (ish) hp base - rear drive
300 hp - rear drive
400 hp - dual motor, AWD

Possibly a hotter one (500+ hp) down the road, but I think it will launch with at most three basic powertrain variations.

I'm sorry I'm not sure how much clearer I can be than to say "Pick 2 or 3 from the list". What part of that is confusing?

OK so you think 220ish, 300ish, and 400ish the three closest would be

221 hp Model 3 XX 221 hp rear motor
376 hp Model 3 XXD 188 hp front, 188 hp rear motor
409 hp Model 3 PXXD 188 hp front, 221 hp rear motor

we don't have any other HP motors to choose from to give us something between 221 and 376 HP so to get your 200ish HP model you either have to go for a single motor at 188HP or 221HP and then jump all the way past 300ish to the 376HP option.

That is unless you think there is a motor in play that hasn't been covered in the thread. But if you think so you need to specify a source and not just be saying it because you want a round number or think they should do it. We've only seen 4 motors in use and the thread title specifies "(based on current drive units)".

I'd say the same but I would go with the 300, 400, 500 options.

Please , you are already on record asking for a 601HP version, but lets assume for a second you really mean 300ish, 400ish, 500ish the nearest matches are

376 hp Model 3 XXD 188 hp front, 188 hp rear motor
409 hp Model 3 XXD 188 hp front, 221 hp rear motor
568 hp Model 3 PXXD 188 hp front, 380 hp rear motor

but I have a hard time believing they won't offer a single motor version.

I also think you are stretching things by asking for more than 2 dual motor versions.

My guess is the base trim will have a single motor, front or rear, 188hp or 221hp. Given the Model S60 has a 380 HP motor it'd make sense to go for something closer to 300HP in the Model 3 that is supposed to be 80% the size. Right now 221HP looks like the entry level option.

next trim would be a dual motor as cheap as possible, I'd expect the 376hp in that slot

finally a top of the line PxxD trim with the biggest rear motor they can fit in the design. Will the 380HP motor fit in the rear of the 80% smaller car? I'm thinking it will since they put a 470hp rear motor in the Model S P85D. So I'm thinking

221 hp Model 3 XX 221 hp rear motor
376 hp Model 3 XXD 188 hp front, 188 hp rear motor
568 hp Model 3 PXXD 188 hp front, 380 hp rear motor

I think it's overkill for to have the 380hp rear motor but I also think they'll do it because they have paying customers demanding overkill.

 

[Model 3]

That is unless you think there is a motor in play that hasn't been covered in the thread. But if you think so you need to specify a source and not just be saying it because you want a round number or think they should do it. We've only seen 4 motors in use and the thread title specifies "(based on current drive units)".

We know that Tesla can use the inverter to reduce the power of a motor to what they want it to deliver (or the limitation may be in the battery). So given a motor able to produce 188hp, it may very well be delivered in a package where it is limited to say 150hp or 120hp if they want to - "(based on current drive units)".

 

[Yggdrasill]

We know that Tesla can use the inverter to reduce the power of a motor to what they want it to deliver (or the limitation may be in the battery). So given a motor able to produce 188hp, it may very well be delivered in a package where it is limited to say 150hp or 120hp if they want to - "(based on current drive units)".

The thing is, they probably wouldn't reduce the cost by very much just by limiting the output. They could possibly save a little bit if they made a Model 3-specific low power inverter, but we're talking maybe $500. And simply increasing the volume of the production of the inverter for the 188/221 hp option might save as much. In my opinion, they'll most likely stick with motor/inverter configurations that are similar to their current configuration. If they introduce a new motor, I think it will most likely replace the 380 hp motor, as the design of this motor is a few years old, and the new 188/221 hp motor seems to be based on a new and improved design.

 

[Model 3]

The thing is, they probably wouldn't reduce the cost by very much just by limiting the output.

Correct. But as shown by the list in the post I was replaying to, it was a big gap between the low-end "221 hp Model 3 XX 221 hp rear motor" and the next possible configuration "376 hp Model 3 XXD 188 hp front, 188 hp rear motor". It may be reasonable to fill this gap with a around 300hp configuration with about 150hp front and rear. And that without constructing a new motor. That was I had in mind.

If they introduce a new motor, I think it will most likely replace the 380 hp motor, as the design of this motor is a few years old, and the new 188/221 hp motor seems to be based on a new and improved design.

Agree - if they can't get more power out of the 221hp motor. I still don't believe that they will use the "old" motors on the Gen-III cars (maybe except the next Roadster).