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General An initial preliminary discussion - a Tesla owner campaign for FSD-license transfer

Tetrylene

New Member
Jul 23, 2021
1
3
United Kingdom
In every discussion about FSD and timelines now across any website or forum, the topic of being able to transfer a software license for FSD to future Teslas comes up as a sort of compensation for owners who have been waiting years for software that hasn't arrived yet. Nobody outside of those playing devils-advocate are opposed to this, and the general sentiment from FSD owners is at least some level of regret or disappointment. At the very least, the value for money of FSD as it is now, and the proposition of being required to buy it for future vehicle purchases, is very egregious.

There's often talk of the potential for class-action lawsuits for dissatisfaction with FSD, but this seems premature. This topic is strangely confined to online discussions only and has never - to my knowledge - been picked up by the media.

Action on the issue can't happen without awareness. Tesla experiences little external pressure to do much about this in the favour of owners. Questions to Elon and the team on the subject are swept aside too easily. A solid first step to having this long-running contention dealt with would be to start campaigning for this, with the goal of having the media pick up the story, and deal the majority of the heavy lifting for us (i.e pressure Tesla and create an incentive to offer this service).

This has to start somewhere. In the true spirit of discussion, I suggest we brainstorm how we could go about accomplishing this in the most succinct and effective manner. The loose consensus from the current discussion seems to be most owners would be content if their purchase of FSD could be transferred to their other and/or future vehicles (or perhaps it's not, and this is something to be discussed too). In no particular order, here are a number of points of consideration for discussion:
  • Format. To be easily shareable, this needs to be in a format that is easy to share and doesn't dilute the details. Images and videos seem to be the most consistent way to ensure the same information is shared. The production value of which matters too. I personally have motion graphics animation experience and would be able to assist with graphical / video production. Having the assistance of a few graphic designers in the community would go a long way.
  • Content. How do we communicate the crux of the issue, and what we want to change? What we communicate needs to be easy to understand, easy to sympathize with, and outlines further sources entities, such as media outlets, can easily reference for further information.
  • Persuasiveness. Like any good story written to inform and convince, ours would need to invoke emotion. We would never want to be deceptive or bend details, but outsiders looking in should be able to relate to the disappointment and frustration prevalent among FSD owners.
  • Coordination. Where would a campaign like this be coordinated? Somewhere assets can be collaborated and shared easily would be necessary.
  • Execution. Having the right message in the right format means nothing without being able to communicate and share them visibly. We would need traction in having people share this. Telsa owners with FSD are an obvious target as they understand the issue well and would likely be motivated to share.
  • Representation. If an important milestone is gaining media attention we would likely need respectable people with some authority or to be points of contact. Officially endorsed tesla owner group leaders and teams would be a good go-to.
  • Results. Ideally, this would take our complaints out from under Tesla's rug to an unavoidable issue that is causing them opportunity cost from potential future FSD customers reconsidering. Further, it might provoke those with the ability to escalate this legally being to take notice and start to investigate. In a nutshell - ultimately it has to be those inside Tesla feeling the heat to give customers what they want. I'm sure many here agree they'd feel more inclined to stay with Tesla if allowed to carry their FSD purchase forward. This should be a win-win for everyone involved.
 

J1mbo

Active Member
Aug 20, 2013
1,609
1,458
UK
I guess you want to transfer the optional paint colour, optional interior, optional alloys and optional performance upgrade from existing cars to new cars too?

FWIW, the subscription option allows you to buy a new car and keep FSD without having to buy it again.

And.. FSD has a resale value. Given two otherwise identical cars from a non-Tesla reseller, the one with FSD will cost you more to buy. Sure, the value depreciates with the car, just like with other options.
 

EVRider-FL

Member
Aug 18, 2015
762
439
South Florida
The introduction of a monthly subscription makes this somewhat moot for owners that haven’t yet purchased FSD. The percentage of owners who have already purchased FSD is probably a lot smaller than most people think. Yes, it would be nice to let those owners transfer FSD to new Teslas, but Tesla has no incentive to make that happen, and despite the complaints from FSD owners, getting enough cooperation from everyone to make this happen is not a realistic goal, in my opinion.
 

Lexdysic

Member
Aug 5, 2020
146
162
Gaithersburg, MD
Welcome to the group Tetrylene- you certainly picked a boring topic nobody really cares about for your first post!

As someone who ordered FSD prior to delivery of the car, I can understand the frustration. I'm in the group that paid $8k, and it's kind of a steep price to pay to have the car change lanes for me. :)

I'm hopeful that more features, including FSD city streets, will be rolled out while I still own this car. But I've come to the conclusion that I will never get $8k worth of FSD. And I honestly don't believe any of us will see robotaxis for at least 10 years. Maybe longer.

That said, I'm ok with my choices. I get disappointed at times, but quickly remind myself how much I truly enjoy driving this car. (Ironic that people want this car to drive itself, even though it's one of the most fun cars to drive) It's the best car I've ever had, and almost a year after delivery I still go for joyrides.

Now, can we please get a f&%#! update?!
 
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rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
3,059
2,517
Orange County, CA
I want to make a slight correction to OP's post regarding FSD being a "license."

Apparently, it's more than that, because in California, the state charges sales tax on this, even though no tangible property is provided. (Software downloads and virtually all software licenses, therefore, are sales tax-free if delivered online.)
So, when I queried why this is the case with FSD, the answer was it was essentially part of the hardware designed for FSD and thus was "tangible." But this, then, at least to my read in California, militates towards not calling it a "license." The fact it can be added or removed by Tesla at any time is consistent with a software license, but against California's classification as "hardware."

Interestingly, some California owners reported not being charged sales tax for FSD, while most (and myself) have been taxed. It certainly is charged for those who bought FSD prior to delivery (as part of the total price).

Just a bit of food for thought. If you can show me where in any transaction document you have says "license" with regard to FSD, please feel free to correct my musing.
 
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Bitdepth

Member
Apr 23, 2020
111
189
London
I want to make a slight correction to OP's post regarding FSD being a "license."

Apparently, it's more than that, because in California, the state charges sales tax on this, even though no tangible property is provided. (Software downloads and virtually all software licenses, therefore, are sales tax-free if delivered online.)
So, when I queried why this is the case with FSD, the answer was it was essentially part of the hardware designed for FSD and thus was "tangible." But this, then, at least to my read in California, militates towards not calling it a "license." The fact it can be added or removed by Tesla at any time is consistent with a software license, but against California's classification as "hardware."

Interestingly, some California owners reported not being charged sales tax for FSD, while most (and myself) have been taxed. It certainly is charged for those who bought FSD prior to delivery (as part of the total price).

Just a bit of food for thought. If you can show me where in any transaction document you have says "license" with regard to FSD, please feel free to correct my musing.
Its a software license. The mere fact that you can pay to upgrade the hardware sans the other software features like NoA and FSD Beta, you can also subscribe and unsubscribes anytime you want shows it s software license that they can revoke at anytime when your subscription lapses. They can also transfer the license between vehicles if they want, but they won't. Tesla has also been known to disable autopilot on cars that was sold used by a seller. In some States, tax is charged on software as a service or license. California is not one of those states but New York is for example.
 
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rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
3,059
2,517
Orange County, CA
Its a software license. The mere fact that you can pay to upgrade the hardware sans the other software features like NoA and FSD Beta, you can also subscribe and unsubscribes anytime you want shows it s software license that they can revoke at anytime when your subscription lapses. They can also transfer the license between vehicles if they want, but they won't. Tesla has also been known to disable autopilot on cars that was sold used by a seller. In some States, tax is charged on software as a service or license. California is not one of those states but New York is for example.
Then you can explain California's treatment as tangible when delivered electronically? It cannot be both. California considers it integral to the hardware, and thus taxed as hardware.

Note that I agree with you that it should be considered a license, but present the facts as the CDTFA related to me that suggest, at least here, it is not being treated as such.

When you buy it, it's undeniably and irreversibly* tied to your car. The car gets totaled day after buying FSD? FSD dies with the car, like any integral piece of HARDWARE.

You are talking about a SUBSCRIPTION that has terms certain, and the FSD is added and removed per the terms and payments made.

*As long as you don't sell it back to Tesla as a trade-in.
 

Bitdepth

Member
Apr 23, 2020
111
189
London
Then you can explain California's treatment as tangible when delivered electronically? It cannot be both. California considers it integral to the hardware, and thus taxed as hardware.

Note that I agree with you that it should be considered a license, but present the facts as the CDTFA related to me that suggest, at least here, it is not being treated as such.

When you buy it, it's undeniably and irreversibly* tied to your car. The car gets totaled day after buying FSD? FSD dies with the car, like any integral piece of HARDWARE.

You are talking about a SUBSCRIPTION that has terms certain, and the FSD is added and removed per the terms and payments made.

*As long as you don't sell it back to Tesla as a trade-in.
The fact that California is treating it as tangible good has no bearing on whether its a software license as that is determined by each state. It is not up for debate that Tesla can reverse it after you buy it as this subscription service shows. You can't claim oh it is not a reversible license on one and then claim the subscription is something entirely different because it has certain terms. Lots of feature you use in a Tesla are software licenses that Tesla can enable and disable at will. Super charging, Extended range etc.

As a business, Tesla is within their right to sell you a non transferable license that you can only use on one car. For example you can buy Microsoft Office but you can only use it on one windows machine at a time but in some cases you can transfer the license to another windows machine. They do sell licenses you can use on multiple machines like the ones they sell to OEMs and business to use.

As a consumer, it would be nice to be able to transfer my license from one Tesla to another. For example if you want to sell your Tesla but want to keep the FSD feature you paid for to use on a new model.
 

heltok

Active Member
Aug 12, 2014
1,300
11,616
Sweden
I have had a Model X with FSD for about 1.5years. I will soon sell it without ever had gotten the chance to use FSD as I am in Europe I doubt I will get to use FSD a single day before I sell it. If I could transfer it from the car to my tesla account before I sell it and then to my next future car, likely a Y or Model S, that would be great.
 
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