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GFCi requirement in Ontario?
- Thread starter pbcsd
- Start date
Define EV charger?
Chargers are on-board, the simple lead connecting the outlet to the car is basically a big GFCI with a pilot signal so the car knows the max amps able to draw. The breaker is purely to protect the cable to the outlet. The question is does the outlet need a GFCI, and that depends on location and cable exposure. A GFCI does not need a GFCI to protect it and can actually cause excessive tripping of one of them. The outlet may well need a GFCI if it’s exposed and outside.
Chargers are on-board, the simple lead connecting the outlet to the car is basically a big GFCI with a pilot signal so the car knows the max amps able to draw. The breaker is purely to protect the cable to the outlet. The question is does the outlet need a GFCI, and that depends on location and cable exposure. A GFCI does not need a GFCI to protect it and can actually cause excessive tripping of one of them. The outlet may well need a GFCI if it’s exposed and outside.
A Nema 14-50 outlet in a garage. Away from any garden hoses etc.
NEMA 14-50 and GFCI Breakers — Connecting EV Charging Stations - Qmerit
Recent amendments to the electrical code increase the need for ground fault protection (GFCI) when using NEMA 14-50 outlets and introduce new complications for installing these breakers with EV charging stations. Learn more on our blog.
qmerit.com
Seems in the US exposure no longer matters and you're required to have a gfci breaker for a 14-50 connection to be used with an EV.
That’s an advertisement, not the compliance code manual. And why would you put a 14-50 plug if it’s a dedicated EV outlet. Welders are 240v only and they have a 6-50 plug. Compressors use a 6-50 plug. At what point would you want a 14-50 plug to run a 240v appliance. As soon as anyone puts a 14-50 plug in a garage you are going to pay a tesla tax. It’s got to the point people are obsessed with a 14-50 outlets, follow the code for your Provence for a 240v dedicated outlet. The breaker is not an exact science.
For those that are interested, breakers can be all over the place with regards to trip sensitivity. But below is the minimum requirements.
At 110% rated current they must trip within 8 hours.
At 135% trip within 1 hour.
At 200% trip within 2 minutes.
A GFCI does nothing to change that.
Its a redundant step, usually put in by inspectors if they cannot visually inspect the wire or they suspect the wiring is compromised. For liability they can ask you to put a GFCI breaker in. I wouldn’t do it voluntarily because I need my car to charge.
For those that are interested, breakers can be all over the place with regards to trip sensitivity. But below is the minimum requirements.
At 110% rated current they must trip within 8 hours.
At 135% trip within 1 hour.
At 200% trip within 2 minutes.
A GFCI does nothing to change that.
Its a redundant step, usually put in by inspectors if they cannot visually inspect the wire or they suspect the wiring is compromised. For liability they can ask you to put a GFCI breaker in. I wouldn’t do it voluntarily because I need my car to charge.
Seems unless one is getting a dedicated Tesla wall charger, the standard recco is to use a 14-50 on this forum, unless I'm missing something.
Read a few of your posts ... where can I learn more about the pros/cons of a 6-50 vs 14-50, circuit breaker differences, wire differences, etc? Pretty much everyone seems to say "put a Nema 14-50 receptacle" sort of thing if not going with a dedicated HPWC.
I.e., why aren't more folks saying use a 6-50 if it's cheaper and more reliable from a wire perspective? Is it slower to charge? Does it require the same 50 amp breaker? What cable is recommended? If one is thinking about trying to "somewhat" future proof if I was to add a second EV (not necessarily a Tesla), is one better than the other from a wiring perspective?
It’s exactly the same. The 14-50 was initially used because roadster owners needed to charge, their cars were able to charge at rates of 70A. One of the most abundant supply’s of charging when traveling in 2008 onwards abd still is are campsites, nearly all have RV charging which is (you guessed it 14-50) because RV’s have a 120v requirement. It became the standard plug because that’s what was already in the wild, pre wired and a really cheap way to charge. Fast forward to today with custom installations. We need 240v 50A. That’s simply 6-50, we do NOT need 120/240v 50A. So you pay for a 3 core cable only to have the white core redundant or if you put a HPWC in, the white wire would not even be connected. 3 cores take up more space than 2 and gets much more expensive as you go larger, yet people complain about the cost associated with the installation especially over long runs. Many places in the USofA have laundry’s in the garage so it made sense to include the 14-50 with the UMC, however EVERY UMC ever made up to and including the founders edition 2011 had a 6-50 adaptor available. It’s basically the same as a 14-50 with the 120v circuit removed. Here in Canada we only had awg 8 for laundry so the original 40A adaptors were often changed to a plug giving a different pilot signal reducing the cars current to 32A. Hence why US Gen 1 UMC can deliver 40A while Canadian ones deliver 32A, the Gen 2 are all 32A to ensure no garages burnt down. If you have a Canadian Gen 1 UMC and use a US 14-50 plug it will deliver 40A, I know because that’s what I do.
So first look at your power requirements and if it’s 240v then wire a 240V socket, if it’s 120/240v requirement then pay the extra for 3 core cable. Not one electrician will suggest a 14-50 for a dedicated 240v outlet because there is no need to have the 120v circuit. I bet you told them you wanted a 14-50 socket in the garage, they will do exactly what you ask them, eventually this foolishness will change but not before a lot more electricians make a lot more money doing exactly what the customer asks. We need to start asking the right questions, rather than supplying an uninformed solution.
So first look at your power requirements and if it’s 240v then wire a 240V socket, if it’s 120/240v requirement then pay the extra for 3 core cable. Not one electrician will suggest a 14-50 for a dedicated 240v outlet because there is no need to have the 120v circuit. I bet you told them you wanted a 14-50 socket in the garage, they will do exactly what you ask them, eventually this foolishness will change but not before a lot more electricians make a lot more money doing exactly what the customer asks. We need to start asking the right questions, rather than supplying an uninformed solution.
Gen 3 HPWC 48a draw with 60A circuit minimum 6AWG copper. If over 60 ft consider going 4 awg. Running cable in conduit is usually always cheaper than armored. Conduit only needs to be in exposed areas but I would just run it all the way anyhow. Plus much easier to work with. 4 AWG is really really hard to work with if going into a socket receptacle, at that point I would put it into a secondary panel and run 6 AWG. Also if more than 40A you have to have a disconnect, the secondary pannel would cover that as well. If you are really lucky you will find someone pulling out a hot-tub. They usually run 3 core 6 awg and have a breaker box for a disconnect and you used to be able to buy the wiring for next to nothing. Been a few years since I had to buy anything so not sure now.
In a nutshell, for a shorter run 6 awg is fine for 60A circuit.
In a nutshell, for a shorter run 6 awg is fine for 60A circuit.
Thx. Will have to measure but I think it will be under 50' or thereabouts.
For a 14-50 or 6-50 assume a 50a 2 pole breaker?
A few more questions, either going to run a 50amp or 60amp circuit, after measuring will likely be somewhere between 40-50 feet of run.
1. Can I run two wires in the conduit if I wanted to have two down the line, or separate conduits?
2. Is it NMD90 6/3 wire for instance if I did go with a 14-50 instead of hardwired or 6-50?
3. Thought I read a disconnect is only needed for > 60amps (NEC 625.43)?
Last edited:
RAM_Eh
Member
Stay away from NMD90. It is rated for only 55A. If you need to use a sheath cable use NMWU90 - that is rated for 60A.
May not be relevant to your install but if your conduit goes underground you must use underground rated cable (NMWU).
A tip of advice. You will need disconnecting means at the or near the outlet, Terminate the cable in a small 100A rated panel, then proceed to the receptacle from another breaker. It will give you the code requirements necessary.
I'm I'm going to run it through a pvc conduit, what cable do you recommend? Not sure if I need a sheath or not.
Man, seems the more I research and/or ask electricians, the more different answers I get!
Just spoke to Oneil electric, they said the NMD90 6/3 is definitely rated for 60 amps (up to 65 I think he said and the 8/3 is rated to 55 amps). Which would seem to agree to this: Romex NMD90-6/3-300 Type NMD90 Non-Metallic Sheathed Building Wire, 300 VAC, (3) 6 AWG Copper Conductor, 300 ft L, White
They also recommended a 2 pole 40amp vs a 50amp breaker (though that might be because they are out of the 50 amps?).
I don't seem to see anyone putting in a panel/disconnect for a 50amp breaker nor has any electrician quoted one? Can you point to the specific code requirement so that I can show that as they all think I'm nuts.
You told them it was for a Tesla didn’t you. A LOT of model 3’s charge at 32A which is a whole different thing than putting in a 50A circuit. That’s why all new connectors run a 32A pilot signal. The Gen 2 UMC only requires a 40A circuit, so that’s what they will give you. So if you do decide later to put in a HPWC you may well just burn the house down because you told the electrician one thing and did something else. There is only ONE code book, but you keep changing what you want. For fear of feeding a troll have you decided exactly what you want and have you managed to talk to an electrician without the word Tesla in the conversation.
Not sure if you're referring to me as a Troll (I trust not), but the first guy I spoke to yes, I said Tesla, the last guy, I simply said an Electric vehicle.
Here's what I want:
- Nema 14-50 plug (run will be ~40 feet)
- 50 amp breaker
- wire it so that in the future if I wanted to up it to 60 amp and install something like the Tesla wall charger and direct wire it, that wouldn't be an issue, outside of possibly changing the breaker.
Here's what I want:
- Nema 14-50 plug (run will be ~40 feet)
- 50 amp breaker
- wire it so that in the future if I wanted to up it to 60 amp and install something like the Tesla wall charger and direct wire it, that wouldn't be an issue, outside of possibly changing the breaker.
Why would you just do a 50A breaker with a 14-50 receptacle if you want to go with HPWC at 60A later? If you do it this way, it means you will throw away the receptacle and 50A breaker and waste your money - a heavy duty 14-50 receptacle like Hubbell will likely cost you over $100. Going straight to HPWC on a 60A breaker would not cost you much more.
Not sure if I will ever go the HPWC route. So figured I'd run a wire that could handle the load if I ever do want to move to 60 amp/HPWC.
Plus I figured the breaker is ~$40, Nema 14-50 is around $50 (can get a Bryant 8450fr from the US). So was ultimately out around $100-150 for that setup if in fact I ever did go HPWC route, vs $600 - $1000 depending on the HPWC.
So am simply trying to figure out if the NMD90 6/3 would work (seems to be rated up to 65 amps, which was also what the guy said at but someone noted above it's only 55 which gives me pause), and whether in fact I do need a disconnect at the source and what that might entail aside from a full sub-panel.