Glass rear window and sedan/liftback discussion

[phil0909]

I'm probably the main proponent of the idea that Musk is obsessed with the second row. But I don't see how that hurt model 3 design. It is a great EV design.

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It severely hurt the design of Model 3. The main purpose of that goofy long solid glass roof/back is to add a couple inches of headroom for second row passengers, without unduly compromising aerodynamics. And the solid glass back led to the trunk with the tiny cargo opening, rather than the hatchback/liftback design that works so well in the Model S and that so many of us were hoping for in the Model 3.

It COULD have been a great EV design. Hopefully, it will still be a pretty good design, even without the liftback.

 

[WarpedOne]

M3 is nt a good enough EV design? No worries, you still have bolt, i3, leaf... All great ev designs...

 

[electracity]

It severely hurt the design of Model 3. The main purpose of that goofy long solid glass roof/back is to add a couple inches of headroom for second row passengers, without unduly compromising aerodynamics. And the solid glass back led to the trunk with the tiny cargo opening, rather than the hatchback/liftback design that works so well in the Model S and that so many of us were hoping for in the Model 3.

It COULD have been a great EV design. Hopefully, it will still be a pretty good design, even without the liftback.

Obviously you don't want to buy the M3 if you don't find it attractive. I find it attractive. Although I prefer the prospective Model Y designs.

I believe the world still prefers a four door sedan with a conventional trunk. While that may not be my or your preferred configuration, Tesla's choice here is completely understandable.

The new Leaf is looking not weird. That car will be an alternative to the M3 for people who want less computer and somewhat more conventional displays.

If you want a new car under $50K with maximum computer and sensors you are probably stuck with the M3. I think most reservation holders who are concerned today about the single display will find the actual car to be satisfactory.

 

[phil0909]

Obviously you don't want to buy the M3 if you don't find it attractive. I find it attractive. Although I prefer the prospective Model Y designs.

I believe the world still prefers a four door sedan with a conventional trunk. While that may not be my or your preferred configuration, Tesla's choice here is completely understandable.

I think the M3 is very pretty, but less practical than it could have been. I too will likely prefer MY, except that it is a few years away and will be priced $7500 higher for starters, due to the end of the federal tax credit.

I don't think you're right about the world, though. Most now prefer hatchbacks. Americans still like sedans, but even that is changing quickly.

I think the big glass roof is foolish, and was caused by the Musk obsession you pointed out with the back seats.

 

[electracity]

I don't think you're right about the world, though. Most now prefer hatchbacks.

I have a hard time separating sedans for hatchbacks when looking at statistics by country.

 

[alseTrick]

It severely hurt the design of Model 3. The main purpose of that goofy long solid glass roof/back is to add a couple inches of headroom for second row passengers, without unduly compromising aerodynamics. And the solid glass back led to the trunk with the tiny cargo opening, rather than the hatchback/liftback design that works so well in the Model S and that so many of us were hoping for in the Model 3.

It COULD have been a great EV design. Hopefully, it will still be a pretty good design, even without the liftback.

I don't think the trunk is tiny at all. Looks like it will easily fit routine items.

The interior appears to be a much bigger concern for more people than the trunk.

 

[alseTrick]

Americans still like sedans, but even that is changing quickly.

I don't think it's changing.

 

[eisbock]

How often do you have a mesmerizing driving experience while riding in a taxi?

Hey man, I'm just trying my darndest to find the upsides. It's not easy though...

 

[eisbock]

I believe they know buyers will be angry if they use cheap interior finishes in the model 3.

I'm probably the main proponent of the idea that Musk is obsessed with the second row. But I don't see how that hurt model 3 design. It is a great EV design.

It's a little too bubbly in back, but I'm over it at this point. Much bigger and more concerning things to worry about.

 

[phil0909]

I have a hard time separating sedans for hatchbacks when looking at statistics by country.

I don't have stats at hand (mostly because I don't care a lot about other people's preferences), but I really thought it was common knowledge that hatchbacks are strongly preferred in Europe, and are quickly overtaking sedans in America. Here's a recent article, for example, quoting Elon Musk projecting up to 1 million global Model Y sales annually, and an auto industry analyst saying: “The sedan is essentially being eaten alive by the compact crossover.”

https://www.trucks.com/2017/03/30/tesla-model-y-crossover-company-success/

 

[phil0909]

I don't think the trunk is tiny at all. Looks like it will easily fit routine items.

The interior appears to be a much bigger concern for more people than the trunk.

It's not that the trunk is tiny, people have expressed concern that the opening into the trunk from outside is too small. Mr. Musk heard enough concern about this that he promised to work on it before finalizing the design. This was almost a year ago. It's not clear what has been done, but no doubt we will soon find out.

On this particular thread, yes, the interior is the big concern, because our topic is lack of new consumer facing technology. I'm not sure that's the biggest concern in general, though. A lot of people were bugged by the lack of a liftback. And I'm not worried about the interior tech, at least not yet. I'm guessing they won't do something really stupid, though of course, anything's possible.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't have stats at hand (mostly because I don't care a lot about other people's preferences), but I really thought it was common knowledge that hatchbacks are strongly preferred in Europe, and are quickly overtaking sedans in America. Here's a recent article, for example, quoting Elon Musk projecting up to 1 million global Model Y sales annually, and an auto industry analyst saying: “The sedan is essentially being eaten alive by the compact crossover.”

https://www.trucks.com/2017/03/30/tesla-model-y-crossover-company-success/

There was a discussion elsewhere, but compact crossovers are not what people are talking about when they say "hatchback". A Golf, Focus hatchback, Mazda3 hatchback is a "hatchback". A compact crossover is the Tiguan, Escape, CX3.

 

[gregincal]

I think the big glass roof is foolish, and was caused by the Musk obsession you pointed out with the back seats.

Back seat headroom is one issue. Just as important is rear visibility. Good aerodynamics require a sloping rear roof instead of the hard crease on most hatchbacks. The Model S tried to do both, but both rear seat headroom and rearview mirror visibility suffered. Rearview mirror visibility is one of my biggest complaints in my Model S. With a smaller Model S they would have either had even worse visibility or had to have given up some of the aerodynamics. While I prefer a hatchback in general, I accept the reasons why this might be better overall.

 

[phil0909]

There was a discussion elsewhere, but compact crossovers are not what people are talking about when they say "hatchback". A Golf, Focus hatchback, Mazda3 hatchback is a "hatchback". A compact crossover is the Tiguan, Escape, CX3.

Eh, depends on who you're talking with. There's a lot of confusion and no universally agreed definitions on a lot of these terms. I, for one, could not tell you the defining difference between a CC and a HB, so I defer to your expertise. But either way, I take it you agree that sedans are on the decline?

You can call it a crossover, but I know a hatchback when I see one

 

[alseTrick]

It's not that the trunk is tiny, people have expressed concern that the opening into the trunk from outside is too small. Mr. Musk heard enough concern about this that he promised to work on it before finalizing the design. This was almost a year ago. It's not clear what has been done, but no doubt we will soon find out.

I am talking about the opening. It isn't tiny. "Looks like it will easily fit routine items."

 

[electracity]

I am talking about the opening. It isn't tiny. "Looks like it will easily fit routine items."

You are supposed to be looking at the glorious roof window under which the Chinese business man sits.

 

[phil0909]

Back seat headroom is one issue. Just as important is rear visibility. Good aerodynamics require a sloping rear roof instead of the hard crease on most hatchbacks. The Model S tried to do both, but both rear seat headroom and rearview mirror visibility suffered. Rearview mirror visibility is one of my biggest complaints in my Model S. With a smaller Model S they would have either had even worse visibility or had to have given up some of the aerodynamics. While I prefer a hatchback in general, I accept the reasons why this might be better overall.

You make a fair point about rear visibility. My Bolt has a rearview mirror that displays from a rear camera, so I no longer even look thru the rear glass (though I can, if I flip off the camera feature). I think that's what Tesla should have done with M3 - seems like a much more practical and cost-efficient solution than a giant piece of glass, and would facilitate both a liftback and great rear visibility. Though rear headroom could still be a problem. I only transport short people in my rear seats, so I don't care about rear headroom.

And don't forget, the giant glass roof is expected to be OPTIONAL on the M3. Anyone who buys the standard metal roof will get the worst of three worlds: less rear headroom, poor rear visibility, and no liftback!

 

[gregincal]

Eh, depends on who you're talking with. There's a lot of confusion and no universally agreed definitions on a lot of these terms. I, for one, could not tell you the defining difference between a CC and a HB, so I defer to your expertise. But either way, I take it you agree that sedans are on the decline?

You can call it a crossover, but I know a hatchback when I see one

OK, but since Tesla is coming out with the Model Y, all you have to do is wait a bit. Perhaps you feel the Model Y should have come out first but Tesla disagreed. The difference with a CC is the higher roof, which allows Tesla to avoid the problems I referred to in my previous post. I want a lower sportier car, so I have no interest in the Model Y.

 

[gregincal]

And don't forget, the giant glass roof is expected to be OPTIONAL on the M3. Anyone who buys the standard metal roof will get the worst of three worlds: less rear headroom, poor rear visibility, and no liftback!

Not really. It's the roof directly overhead the driver that is optional. Either way the glass extends over the whole rear seat.

 

[Yggdrasill]

And don't forget, the giant glass roof is expected to be OPTIONAL on the M3. Anyone who buys the standard metal roof will get the worst of three worlds: less rear headroom, poor rear visibility, and no liftback!

The rear window is expected to be standard. There's a middle glass roof section that's expected to be optional.