Global Top 10 PEV Brands September 2017 YTD

[RobStark]

Pl WORLD .............Sept..........YTD..............%..........'16Pl
1 Tesla ..................14.348.......73.227..........10........... 2
2 BYD ...................11.786.......69084........... 9..............1
3 BMW ..................10.099.......66.024..........9..............3
4 BAIC ...................9.489 .......53.716...........7..............5
5 Nissan................3.295........39.993...........5..............4
6 Toyota.................4.255........39.442..........5.............30
7 Chevrolet............5.284.........36.983..........5.............8
8 Zhidou .............. 5.084........ 32.616..........4............14
9 Renault................3.205 ........29.736.........4............10
10 Volkswagen......4.873........28.128..........4..............6

Individual Models ranked in link

EV Sales: World Top 10 September 2017

 

[jbcarioca]

It's perhaps interesting that BAIC makes Hyundai and Mercedes Benz in JVs. Their BEV's are currently the EC-Series which are really 'city cars' with low power and short range. Once their parents get in the act BAIC probably will really soar.

BYD has momentum, but really may not have the technical capacity to lead once the BMW and MB Chinese BEV production begins. Nobody knows how Tesla will be, but I'll wager they'll find a way to be first.

 

[McRat]

If BMW sells nearly the same # of EV's as Tesla, how come I see 20+ Teslas for each plug in BMW I see?

Is it because they sell a lot of Short Range PHEVs (<20mi EPA AER) in Europe?
That i3 isn't exactly a winner. Overpriced, undersized, poor styling.

 

[Zythryn]

I have to say I am thrilled to see such a close group of manufacturers. I think that is a good sign of a competitive market.
From a market view, it is a little disappointing that the well established manufacturers that have decades of experience with high volume production are trailing :\

 

[Zythryn]

If BMW sells nearly the same # of EV's as Tesla, how come I see 20+ Teslas for each plug in BMW I see?

Is it because they sell a lot of Short Range PHEVs (<20mi EPA AER) in Europe?
That i3 isn't exactly a winner. Overpriced, undersized, poor styling.

I actually like the size and styling of the i3
It is actually my first choice behind Tesla.

 

[jbcarioca]

If BMW sells nearly the same # of EV's as Tesla, how come I see 20+ Teslas for each plug in BMW I see?

Is it because they sell a lot of Short Range PHEVs (<20mi EPA AER) in Europe?
That i3 isn't exactly a winner. Overpriced, undersized, poor styling.

Because those sales are not mostly happening in the USA and because it's pretty hard to distinguish between a BMW, or Porsche... PHEV and pure-ICE.
Because most of the models are new so sales are just beginning to ramp up.

The Bolt is an example, since Bolt/Ampera sales are just now becoming more nearly mature but still have major shortages in major markets such as Norway and Germany.

 

[McRat]

I actually like the size and styling of the i3
It is actually my first choice behind Tesla.

The i3's range, especially in the rain, or significant terrain or higher speed losses (HOV lane), keeps it from being on our radar. While the REx might be capable, it is not capable of true EREV abilities, or able to haul much cargo. 430lb is the hard limits on the rear axle assuming a 200lb driver on level ground with no camber. This is based on the max tire rating at maximum pressure. Probably not safe under all conditions. The car is a tail heavy RWD when unladen with tiny tires on it. Tail heavy cars can be tricky in emergency maneuvers especially when carry weight in the rear. I'd suggest no more than 250lb in the back of the car, less in the rain. This is probably why some owners report high speed stability concerns, and why you cannot disable the stability control.

Perspective:
The Bolt is >1300lb rear loading based on the same tire calculations, and is a nose heavy FWD. You are probably safe to at least 500lb rear cargo. It handles just fine at cornering limits with the stability control off. The Volt yields similar behavior.

 

[McRat]

Because those sales are not mostly happening in the USA and because it's pretty hard to distinguish between a BMW, or Porsche... PHEV and pure-ICE.
Because most of the models are new so sales are just beginning to ramp up.

The Bolt is an example, since Bolt/Ampera sales are just now becoming more nearly mature but still have major shortages in major markets such as Norway and Germany.

And also, new PHEVs in California do not qualify for HOV stickers unless they have over 20 miles AER. That could be why EU PHEVs are rare here.

GM has virtually dropped all European efforts, but is doing very well in China.

There is little reason for General Motors to sell Bolt EVs or Volts (or any EV/PHEV) in Europe. The EV/PHEV laws don't mesh.
Making an EV/PHEV for European rules would be a step backwards in technology.

 

[jbcarioca]

And also, new PHEVs in California do not qualify for HOV stickers unless they have over 20 miles AER. That could be why EU PHEVs are rare here.

GM has virtually dropped all European efforts, but is doing very well in China.

There is little reason for General Motors to sell Bolt EVs or Volts (or any EV/PHEV) in Europe. The EV/PHEV laws don't mesh.
Making an EV/PHEV for European rules would be a step backwards in technology.

Buick is the #2 brand by sales in China.

GM paid PSA to take Opel/Vauxhaul partly because GME had zero hope to meet the new EU pollution regulations. PSA needs the Ampera partly to reduce that pressure, and that was part of the deal. GM, thus, does care to avoid higher costs for unloading their EU mess.

It remains to be seen how much PHEV can be for Europeans, although the new Chinese Volvos seem to be better than most of the rest.

I don’t quite see why you say European EV/PHEV laws don’s mesh. Which countries do you mean, or is it EU. Could you explain, please?

 

[McRat]

Buick is the #2 brand by sales in China.

GM paid PSA to take Opel/Vauxhaul partly because GME had zero hope to meet the new EU pollution regulations. PSA needs the Ampera partly to reduce that pressure, and that was part of the deal. GM, thus, does care to avoid higher costs for unloading their EU mess.

It remains to be seen how much PHEV can be for Europeans, although the new Chinese Volvos seem to be better than most of the rest.

I don’t quite see why you say European EV/PHEV laws don’s mesh. Which countries do you mean, or is it EU. Could you explain, please?

Apparently the min EV range on PHEVs seems to be 14 mi EPA on Euro builds. That cannot be a coincidence. 14 miles is nothing, especially when the EV mode power is very low.

So why would anyone spend more for a 30-53 mi EPA range PHEV? Ampera sales proved the point. Americans are aiming for 30+ miles, but not so for European mfr's.

GM is not going to make a 14 mile EV. Even the large CT6 is 31 mi AER.
Compare Side-by-Side

 

[McRat]

...
GM paid PSA to take Opel/Vauxhaul partly because GME had zero hope to meet the new EU pollution regulations. ...

I doubt this. Due to labor agreements, GM had been losing money in Europe since 1999.
GM has world class emission technology and has often done what some folk considered impossible, again and again, but did it without gimping the engines. The first view of GM's ability to dominate in engine management software design came in 1997 with the LS1 346ci engine. While being just a normal 2v pushrod V8, it somehow achieved better economy and lower emissions than cars that were lighter and less powerful.

You will notice, that GM has not been accused by a legitimate government agency about lying concerning diesel emissions, gas emissions, electric range, gas mileage, or engine output.

In fact, they have been noted to understate specifications if anything.

Companies who can't say this? Ford, Dodge, Mitsubishi, Nissan, VW brands, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, and Toyota. Oh, and when it comes to 762 advertised HP there is another company too.

 

[jbcarioca]

I doubt this. Due to labor agreements, GM had been losing money in Europe since 1999...

This is a matter of public record. GM blamed labor agreements. Knowing how pro-GM you are we need not discuss the facts. As for their product development state for Opel/Vauxhall, that too is pretty well documented. Were it not so they'd not have paid PSA to take it. Certainly inept workforce management was part of the problem. GM has had it's share of scandals too but our topic is really about things Tesla rather than the deficiencies of legacy manufacturers. BTW, insisting GM is ahead in or in parity with BEV technology will not make it so.
as for GM regulatory issues:
Government fines GM $35M for safety violations
General Motors Recalls Nearly 200,000 Hummers Because They Shouldn’t Just Catch On Fire

You know we could go on for a long time with articles such as these two. GM has had failures just as have the others, and GM has made questionable statements too. Falsifications galore, most auto companies have had them. It's a bit disingenuous, isn't it, to praise GM so consistently when their track record does include that bankruptcy?

 

[McRat]

1) Ignition Switch issue (I've purchased 3-4 and driven at least a dozen, zero issues, my oldest has >300k mi on a Killer Cobalt)
2) 20 out of 200,000 fire issues is probably not as high as some cars...

But what I'm saying is not recalls. When GM publishes data on the their vehicles, it is correct or better. This is not that common with automakers. They often exaggerate to sell cars. If Cadillac says their car goes 200 mph, it will go at least 200 mph.

 

[jbcarioca]

1) Ignition Switch issue (I've owned 3-4 and driven at least a dozen, zero issues)
2) 20 out of 200,000 fire issues is probably not as high as some cars...

But what I'm saying is not recalls. When GM publishes data on the their vehicles, it is correct or better. This is not that common with automakers. They often exaggerate to sell cars. If Cadillac says their car goes 200 mph, it will go at least 200 mph.

Just curious, why stay on this forum? You could be with any of the GM ones instead so you could concentrate yourself on the manufacturer you regard as technologically advanced, honest and straightforward.

Personally I prefer to spend time on subjects I find to be inspiring. That is why I’m here, but I understand why some people might think GM is better.

 

[McRat]

Just curious, why stay on this forum? You could be with any of the GM ones instead so you could concentrate yourself on the manufacturer you regard as technologically advanced, honest and straightforward.

Personally I prefer to spend time on subjects I find to be inspiring. That is why I’m here, but I understand why some people might think GM is better.

I first arrived here to research the Model S with the intention of purchasing a P series. I've stayed waiting for the Model 3.

I rarely bash Teslas, and recommend them to friends.

GM's are not 'better' than Teslas, they are different. Tesla does not sell a Volt, Corvette, or CT6 and GM does not sell a Model S or Model X or Model 3. There is zero overlap at this stage, just differences.

 

[jkn]

If BMW sells nearly the same # of EV's as Tesla, how come I see 20+ Teslas for each plug in BMW I see?

Is it because they sell a lot of Short Range PHEVs (<20mi EPA AER) in Europe?
That i3 isn't exactly a winner. Overpriced, undersized, poor styling.

Norway October 2017, total 2017

BMW i3: 417,__ 4166
Tesla S: 162,__ 2185
Tesla X: 130,__ 2824

Similar situation in whole Europe:
EV Sales: Europe September 2017


One reason is that S&X are rather large cars for European roads, parking places and garages. (Our house has indoors garage, but it's 20 cm shorter than MS.)