? GM baling on their version gen 3 car

[Zapped]

You won't be going 0-60 mph with much excitement with NG.
NG doesn't have nearly the energy density of gasoline or propane, thus far less power.

And don't forget the issues / hassles with a pressurized fuel tank. Inspections / periodic certifications etc.. BBQ propane tanks are painful enough.
Hard to believe this is even being considered

 

[PeterJA]

It is bad enough to drive around with a tank of flammable liquid at atmospheric pressure. I will not be risking collisions with other cars (and metal road debris) while sitting on a tank of highly compressed flammable gas, which will ignite instantly on contact with hot exhaust parts.

 

[Grendal]

You won't be going 0-60 mph with much excitement with NG.
NG doesn't have nearly the energy density of gasoline or propane, thus far less power.

And don't forget the issues / hassles with a pressurized fuel tank. Inspections / periodic certifications etc.. BBQ propane tanks are painful enough.
Hard to believe this is even being considered

It sounds like the dealerships will be happy to do any repairs and annual inspections.

There is an abundance of natural gas accessible and on the market so GM can continue making gas burners that they know so well.

 

[Dave EV]

Natural Gas should be used to replace coal in the short/medium term. Not used to replace gasoline.

Electrification (hybrids, plug-in hybrids and EVs) is the way to make the automotive fleet more efficient.

GM still can't make a Prius (or even a Camry Hybrid) competitor - but they have a darn good PHEV and their EV isn't bad, either. Now if they'd stick that EV drivetrain in a slightly bigger vehicle that appeals to more people with a bit more battery they'd be well on their way.

 

[Palpatine]

As part of their Tesla review, the MBAs at GM did a study for switching GM to a model of doing all EVs. The results likely indicated that the transition would be so expensive that it would likely bankrupt GM again. Think of all of those assets they have built on a foundation of the ICE. GM has a huge business based on selling auto parts. That would all be at risk with a transition to EVs.

GM would have a total revolt from their dealers if they started pushing a lot of EVs.

My guess is that their consultants and bean counters did the math and it isn't pretty.

it will be very difficult for legacy auto companies, with independent dealers, to switch to EVs. It might even be impossible. All of the profit centers get moved around, therefore there will be turf wars and resistance.

Tesla avoided that by started with a clean slate to reimagine the entire process.

 

[gene]

Well, if I had that NG compressor filling my car in an enclosed garage overnight, I wouldn't be able to sleep. A leak in the hose and a spark would level my entire house and maybe the neighbors as well!

 

[PopSmith]

Claims driving by the dots not feasible.

Silly GM, they didn't study Tesla well enough as a lot of Tesla owners have proven this to be untrue.

Also what are gas stations? They are very much "dots", they've just had 100+ years to expand around the world. In 1909, when the first Ford cars were being sold, widely-accepted transportation (a horse) was "refueled" practically anywhere. Gas stations were sparse and gas was expensive (inflation-adjusted, gas was about $7/gallon). If the tables were turned and the ICE was being re-introduced (on a mass scale) today it wouldn't catch on.

 

[Larken]

Well, if I had that NG compressor filling my car in an enclosed garage overnight, I wouldn't be able to sleep. A leak in the hose and a spark would level my entire house and maybe the neighbors as well!

I know, it's incredile and doomed to fail. Imagine the difference between a Tesla car having a rare occasional fire, where the car intelligently alarms the driver to exit, not to mention the battery being built in such a way that the fire is compartmentalized and on the other hand the NG car has a massive explosion that takes out the 3 other cars next to you, or your house or whatever. It's ridiculous... but I guess this is good news for TSLA shareholders as the head start just became waaayy bigger.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

As I noted earlier it's a good hedge on electric not working out. It should be said that GM engines often like premium so high compression allowed by NG should be OK. You can get daily drivig on home natural gas, but compressors are limited to a choice of one and it's slow. I think CNG could be very popular with taxi fleets, as LPG is in other locations.

The fundamental problem is that "selfish" buyers want it for one thing only: cheap fuel. Less cargo space, less power, harder to hybridize, more frequent refuelingcand currently less infrastructure. That means that if the price runs up relative to gasoline demand will fall. However, relative investment should be small.

There are positive signs from GM, although Akerson's rapid incremental improvement approach means there may not be big leaps coming from them. However, they've increased investment in electrification. They also have shifted a lot of control to engineering, away from accounting. The quick update to a struggling Malibu is a sign of the increased dynamism, I think.

 

[Cattledog]

How do I get a natural gas fueling station in my garage? While I wait on that answer, I'll start planning my next road trip using this map of free gas/natural gas stations in the US.

Top Ten post for 2013!

 

[BobHodgen]

If GM was smart they'd leverage their network of dealers into a network of charging stations for EV's.

Not gonna happen, I'm afraid.

 

[Doug_G]

With one of these (assuming you have gas at your home for hot water, furnace, stove etc.)

Right, but what they don't tell you is the amount of electricity you'll be using to compress the natural gas. It's a good fraction of what you'd need to run an EV.

 

[Robert.Boston]

The "connect the dots" problem is very severe for CNG. There are 605 public CNG fueling stations in the U.S. according to the DOE, in contrast to the 6,601 public EV charging stations (and that doesn't count the tens of thousands of RV parks and other locations with NEMA 14-50 plugs). Looking at many of these CNG stations, more than a few are not open 24/7 but only during business hours. Worse yet is the ability to build out -- lots of places do not have piped NG distribution networks (most of Maine, e.g.), so to build a CNG station you'd have to have large-scale compressed gas storage, which isn't cheap.

The refuel-at-home option looks risky and far more costly than at-home EV charging. How many people ran gas lines to their garage during construction? And if you don't have a garage, it's much harder to set up a safe refueling location with CNG v. electricity.

Americans really need to get over the "I just like knowing that I could drive from Detroit to Palo Alto" issue. Few Americans actually take such trips, fewer still only own one car and take long car trips. Renting cars for long trips is often more sensible: if something breaks a long way from home, I'd rather have it be the rental car company's issue rather than mine.

 

[richkae]

Right, but what they don't tell you is the amount of electricity you'll be using to compress the natural gas. It's a good fraction of what you'd need to run an EV.

I calculated it as 12.8 kWh for a full tank ( tank that provides 200 mile range ) a couple of years ago.
So instead of wasting the electricity compressing the gas, you could just drive 35-40 miles on that electricity.
Also note that this means you need both a gas supply and an electricity supply to do that... so you could just skip the gas and charge your EV.

 

[StapleGun]

selling 750 to 1,000 units in the first model year would be a home run.

Compliance cars, nothing more.

 

[Lloyd]

How do I get a natural gas fueling station in my garage? While I wait on that answer, I'll start planning my next road trip using this map of free gas/natural gas stations in the US.

You can buy a home Natural gas compressor, but it uses 3 kw of electricity per hour three phase and takes about three hours to fill a 60 L tank. You can go about 150 miles with that. You can go about 40 miles in an S just on the electricity to compress the gas.

http://www.davyenergy.com/cng1.php

 

[30seconds]

High pressure, highly explosive fuel supply PLUS the added benefit of a complex combustion type engine and multispeed transmission.

What's there not to like?

 

[mrdoubleb]

Don't know about the US but in my country most closed/underground parking spaces (like the ones malls have) have warning signs prohibiting driving in with a CNG car. Even my own apartment building's garage does not allow it.

On top of that, i know it's safe but, I didn't even like the gas cannister we had at my dad's weekend house. I just never felt safe around it. And some people complain about batteries blowing up, I mean, come on....

 

[jerry33]

Americans really need to get over the "I just like knowing that I could drive from Detroit to Palo Alto" issue. Few Americans actually take such trips, fewer still only own one car and take long car trips. Renting cars for long trips is often more sensible: if something breaks a long way from home, I'd rather have it be the rental car company's issue rather than mine.

I'd suggest that it's more like "Americans no longer take trips like that because of high fuel prices". EVs should change that. As for rental cars--no thanks. Questionable state of repair, a crummy ICE, and driver unfamiliarity make for a less-than-stellar experience. Recall the unfortunate CHP officer and his family in the Toyota.