GM just adopted NACS 🤯🤯🤯

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah, I don't know how to verify what you are saying w/o learning Russian or whatever that guy is speaking, with no auto-translation all I see is a guy who doesn't speak English holding an EVSE.

You don't need to understand Russian (I don't either). About 0:42 in he shows the circuit board with the chip has only 2 wires going to it (and the two wires do not go to the pins that go to the wall but rather goes down the cable) and the chip is made by an American company.

You can simply look up the chip:
"Can Be Powered from Data Line (3.0V to 3.7V Power-Supply Range)"
"The MAX31826 digital thermometer provides 12-bit temperature measurements and communicates over a 1-Wire® bus that by definition requires only one data line (and ground) for communication with a central microcontroller. It has a -55°C to +125°C operating temperature range and is accurate to ±0.5°C over the -10°C to +85°C range. In addition, the device can derive power directly from the data line ("parasite power"), eliminating the need for an external power supply."

https://www.analog.com/en/products/max31826.html#product-overview

Here's someone in our forums that also took that chip out and also took pictures (also showing only two wires going to the circuit board, while showing clearly the part number on the chip)

Sanity Check - Immediate NSW rural road trip

Hi All, Pick up my M3LR Thursday - my plan is to immediately go to a supercharger, top it off, and head off on a 3 day 1200km road trip to rural NSW, essentially D1 destination (that has supercharger) D2 Side trip ~300km D3 early start bust ass home the ABRP etc basically says as long as i...

teslamotorsclub.com

So it's a known fact that the NEMA adapter uses a temperature sensing chip that takes power from the data line (and according to above thread it also can store data, so the same chip is apparently used to identify the amp limit of the given adapter).

If someone has done something like that doesn't mean it's in spec, perhaps it can be a working hack but I don't know of anyone talking about powering an adapter from the communications lines and that's likely for a reason.

No one is discussing doing that for the existing DC adapters because it's unnecessary in those cases! The whole reason we are discussing this in the first place is we are talking about a theoretical mostly passive adapter (no complex protocol translations that may require a much more powerful processor and complex circuitry in the first place) that will have a cable of significant length (much longer than even the ~8 inches of the CHAdeMO adapter, while supporting substantially more current) that may make such a temp sensor/ID system necessary.

And on the subject of feasibility, in the comment you gave a disagree, I already posted the caveats:
"The only question is if there is a data line free for Tesla to transfer that info to either the car or the charger."

But at least hopefully you now agree with my point that the chip in the NEMA adapter proves it is definitely technically possible to have a temperature sensor/ID system that uses only the data lines.

But if anyone's gonna do it, and they promised they would have adapters for Ford cars, Tesla is gonna do it. The CleanTechnica articles were good, but nothing new.

I posted the article because it shows pictures of the chip and the two communication lines on the connector that go to the chip, as per the pictures I posted. I am not making any suggestions of third parties doing this, it's a given this is talking about Tesla, in context. Neither the Ford nor GM announcements suggest that the adapters would work on other CCS vehicles (or even that the Ford and GM ones would be cross compatible). So it could be a system separate from standard CCS.

 

[EvilNuff]

The stock market disagrees with you given the stock price shot up. This move further entrenches Tesla's supercharger network and NACS and GM/Ford presumably provided upfront payments to help cover the expected extra demand (GM hinted it was in the ball park of a couple hundred million), so it only provides funding for further improvement of the network. It's a win-win overall.

The only people treating this as a lose are people treating the Supercharger as if it is a zero sum network that does not grow in capacity in response to demand, so they expect the stations to become overcrowded, when in reality the extra funding will provide extra stalls/stations.

There's also the side effect of with two major automakers on board, third party charge networks are going to be forced to adopt NACS, which means Tesla owners will no longer have to buy a CCS adapter.

The stock shot up because Musk is going to focus on Tesla again and back off of twitter.

Tesla's single best competitive advantage, and it is monumental, is their charging network. Go look at GM and Ford forums online, they have been filled with comments about "now I can buy a Ford/GM". This literally hurts Tesla sales and generates negligible if any benefit at all.

 

[israndy]

Well, maybe, but if Tesla had TOO much success I think there would have been a backlash. Blocking or overcharging Tesla for resources like land, while now that they appear to be interested in sharing, we are back to the public thinking of EVs in general and not Teslas only.

 

[Genie]

Go look at GM and Ford forums online, they have been filled with comments about "now I can buy a Ford/GM". This literally hurts Tesla sales and generates negligible if any benefit at all.

I am now much more interested in Ford/GM. I expect Tesla sales will suffer more from their customer service than adoption of NACS. In theory that will Make Tesla improve their service as owners start seeing Ford/GM at the next stall may take a liking to them.
If that happens, there’s your benefit.

 

[israndy]

I bet you don't buy a Ford/GM until 2025 though...

It's possible they have Osborned themselves and won't have the same resources in two years to switch to EVs

 

[Sophias_dad]

Osborned themselves

Now there's a reference I haven't heard in thirty years!

 

[israndy]

Oh, must have been "on" accident. What are the kids saying now?

 

[Genie]

I bet you don't buy a Ford/GM until 2025 though...

It's possible they have Osborned themselves and won't have the same resources in two years to switch to EVs

You’d win that bet, it may take them even longer to produce one I like enough to buy, but I think that day will arrive.

 

[smogne41]

I bet you don't buy a Ford/GM until 2025 though...

It's possible they have Osborned themselves and won't have the same resources in two years to switch to EVs

The availability of adapters will probably mostly mitigate that. If not and it does start to seriously bite into sales they can just announce that charge port retrofits will be available in the future (assuming they are technically possible, which they probably will be).

 

[israndy]

Yeah, if you can repair it, you can replace it, but I think customers may be a bit "Bird in the hand" with EVs now that this uncertainty has been announced. The Early Ad(a|o)pter crowd already has an EV, the new owners are their neighbors who want in on the Electric Future. Will be interesting to see how the wrong port Lightning goes up against the wrong everything else CyberTruck over the next year.

 

[jpk195]

More likely CCS cars will be relegated to local use.

This is still the predominant use case for EVs in my opinion. Charge at home/charge and work. Level 2 95% of the time. The L3 charger is really most important for people who buy an EV as their only car or a larger/road tripping one. For first-time EV owners, it's the closest thing to a gas station, but there's mindset shift that needs to happen to get the most from an EV.

Which is one reason why I'm not convinced this move really addresses the bottlenecks to EV adoption. I think this move can just as easily be explained as a way for Tesla to undermine sales of key EV and ADAS competitors (Kia, Rivian, Polestar, Mobileye) by creating uncertainty and confusion around the future of charging. This is the opposite of what you want for more EV adoption.

 

[smogne41]

This is still the predominant use case for EVs in my opinion. Charge at home/charge and work. Level 2 95% of the time. The L3 charger is really most important for people who buy an EV as their only car or a larger/road tripping one. For first-time EV owners, it's the closest thing to a gas station, but there's mindset shift that needs to happen to get the most from an EV.

Which is one reason why I'm not convinced this move really addresses the bottlenecks to EV adoption. I think this move can just as easily be explained as a way for Tesla to undermine sales of key EV and ADAS competitors (Kia, Rivian, Polestar, Mobileye) by creating uncertainty and confusion around the future of charging. This is the opposite of what you want for more EV adoption.

'Predominant' is a strong word. What you describe is perhaps a common use-case, but not anywhere near predominant. Most people I know with an EV use it for everything, including road trips. For us it is our only car, so it has to do everything. We are both WFH, so the car actually ends up getting used mostly for road trips and local shopping. I checked the Tesla app and we are 48% Supercharging, 36% Home and 16% Other (all Level 2/1) in the last year (and we have a wall charger at home and never Supercharge locally). I would not have bought an EV if it could have not been our only car, and if it was not practical for road trips. Lots of other people are in the same boat, especially after work-from-home became more popular.

 

[pb2000]

Do you just constantly forget to plug in? I'm 77% home, 6% other (mostly family cabin, so basically home as well) and 17% Supercharger for the past 12 months (which includes a >2500km road trip).

 

[smogne41]

Do you just constantly forget to plug in? I'm 77% home, 6% other (mostly family cabin, so basically home as well) and 17% Supercharger for the past 12 months (which includes a >2500km road trip).

No, we keep it plugged in. We just really do mostly road trip miles.

 

[stopcrazypp]

'Predominant' is a strong word. What you describe is perhaps a common use-case, but not anywhere near predominant. Most people I know with an EV use it for everything, including road trips. For us it is our only car, so it has to do everything. We are both WFH, so the car actually ends up getting used mostly for road trips and local shopping. I checked the Tesla app and we are 48% Supercharging, 36% Home and 16% Other (all Level 2/1) in the last year (and we have a wall charger at home and never Supercharge locally). I would not have bought an EV if it could have not been our only car, and if it was not practical for road trips. Lots of other people are in the same boat, especially after work-from-home became more popular.

And I would say even among people that might "never" use the fast charging capabilities, just having it there is a HUGE marketing/psychological factor. When early EVs came out, it was commonly trotted out that the average miles people traveled were only 40 miles, so things like short range EVs and PHEVs would be perfect for the market. But the market didn't really explode until long range EVs with fast charging came on the market. People want their cars to be able to handle that 1% (or 0.1%) use case. It's also the same reason why CUVs exploded even though most people would rarely use the extra space or storage.

 

[gtae07]

And I would say even among people that might "never" use the fast charging capabilities, just having it there is a HUGE marketing/psychological factor. When early EVs came out, it was commonly trotted out that the average miles people traveled were only 40 miles, so things like short range EVs and PHEVs would be perfect for the market.

And even then, "average" only gets to about a midpoint. My "average" use during a workweek might be 24 miles/day--and then you have a day like yesterday when I was out with my wife and we did almost 80 just going into town and going to an event. Telling someone "you only need a car that covers your average use" might mean a car that doesn't cover 30-50% of that use. And if you're only going to have one car, then that car needs to be able to do that other 30-50%. The short-range local-only EV is a super-niche application, especially if they're anything other than dirt-cheap and require even L2 charging to be useful.

But the market didn't really explode until long range EVs with fast charging came on the market. People want their cars to be able to handle that 1% (or 0.1%) use case.

Depends what part of the country you're in, I guess. Growing up it was fairly common to need to make a trip to the other side of the Atlanta metro area--hardly a "road trip" but likely not confidently doable by a short-range EV. Around here it's quite common to make a weekend outing 1-2 hours away (which could be 100+ miles each way). So far in the 10 days I've had my Tesla I've taken it to Charleston (~2hr each way) and while it said I'd make it home with 1% remaining I wouldn't have considered the trip (much less bought the car) without knowing I'd have charger options if I drove further than an hour from home. Being able to add that 20% of charge for margin made all the difference.

It's also the same reason why CUVs exploded even though most people would rarely use the extra space or storage.

I think the extra storage space of CUVs gets used more often than that, especially for people with kids, dogs, or Costco memberships. But I think they became popular for a few reasons. First, they sit higher, so better visibility and much easier entry/exit relative to smaller cars--something I didn't appreciate as I grew up driving little hatchbacks, then had a truck and van for a while, then went back to a small car for a couple years. Getting in/out of the MY is much easier than my old Focus, especially with sore muscles and bad joints. Second, the extra cargo space is part of being essentially an overgrown hatchback--I loved the flexibility my old Focus had and I could cram a surprising amount of stuff in it. The hatch is a lot easier to deal with than a trunk and was one of the major factors in the My/M3 decision. And finally, CUVs gave that higher seating and extra room but still handled more like cars and had (relatively) better mileage than truck-based vehicles.

 

[dgpcolorado]

'Predominant' is a strong word. What you describe is perhaps a common use-case, but not anywhere near predominant. Most people I know with an EV use it for everything, including road trips. For us it is our only car, so it has to do everything. We are both WFH, so the car actually ends up getting used mostly for road trips and local shopping. I checked the Tesla app and we are 48% Supercharging, 36% Home and 16% Other (all Level 2/1) in the last year (and we have a wall charger at home and never Supercharge locally). I would not have bought an EV if it could have not been our only car, and if it was not practical for road trips. Lots of other people are in the same boat, especially after work-from-home became more popular.

My use case is similar to yours. My EV is my only car and my miles are about two thirds road trips because I regularly make multi thousand mile trips. Being rural and retired (mostly, I do a lot of volunteer work), I don't use my car every day but my trips tend be more miles than urban/suburban drivers: 70 miles for grocery shopping or the movie theater and 38 miles to the gym, for example. I'm averaging more than 21,000 miles a year over the last seven years. All of my Supercharging is on road trips, about 900 times.

Nevertheless, I think DCFC will be necessary for local driving for the third of drivers who don't have access to home or work charging. People in apartments or those in cities with only street parking. Those of us who take our home charging for granted need to consider those who don't have access to home charging. They may be the last cohort to fully adopt EVs but they will need to be accommodated someday, somehow. I presume that those locals who crowd Supercharger Stations now are mostly those who don't have home charging. That number figures to grow by a lot.