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Green Hydrogen
- Thread starter mspohr
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- hydrogen renewable energy
jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
Brando
Active Member
from google search:
Atomic radii vary in a predictable way across the periodic table. As can be seen in the figures below, the atomic radius increases from top to bottom in a group, and decreases from left to right across a period. Thus, helium is the smallest element, and francium is the largest.
also note atom vs molecule => H vs H2
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You had said "Hydrogen, the second-tiniest of all atoms". My impression was you meant mass or effective radii. Indeed, there are several ways to look at this.
Technically, by strict atomic radii, the helium atom is slightly smaller. But if we are talking about effective radius, helium is a substantially larger atom since its completed valence electron orbital repels other elements strongly. Hydrogen (the atom) or H2 (the molecule) has a much smaller effective radius.
Since you mentioned that hydrogen "can penetrate right into the crystal structure of a solid metal", had assumed you were talking about mass or effective radii; as hydrogen has the smallest effective radii, it is able to work its way into the metal as discussed.
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Green Ammonia and Hydrogen Now Cheaper than Fossil Fuels
/PRNewswire/ - Hydrofuel Canada Inc. ("Hydrofuel"), a company engaged in delivering Green Ammonia and Hydrogen along the last mile to its customers, has...
www.prnewswire.com
Combined, these technologies allow Hydrofuel to produce Green NH3 using $.02/kWh electricity for as low as $220 a tonne, whereas fossil-fuel derived NH3 is currently selling at $1,500 to $2,000 a tonne.
Green Hydrogen can be separated out from this ammonia to sell at about $1.50 a kg, compared to traditional green H2 which sells for up to $15 a kg. Even at $.08/kWh the production of green Ammonia and releasing Hydrogen from it will be lower cost than any hydrocarbon fuel.
Brando
Active Member
Can you compare this to using battery storage? for solar or wind farmsGreen Ammonia and Hydrogen Now Cheaper than Fossil Fuels
/PRNewswire/ - Hydrofuel Canada Inc. ("Hydrofuel"), a company engaged in delivering Green Ammonia and Hydrogen along the last mile to its customers, has...
Combined, these technologies allow Hydrofuel to produce Green NH3 using $.02/kWh electricity for as low as $220 a tonne, whereas fossil-fuel derived NH3 is currently selling at $1,500 to $2,000 a tonne.
Green Hydrogen can be separated out from this ammonia to sell at about $1.50 a kg, compared to traditional green H2 which sells for up to $15 a kg. Even at $.08/kWh the production of green Ammonia and releasing Hydrogen from it will be lower cost than any hydrocarbon fuel.
Seems to me H2 better if used quickly (minimize storage time & avoid moving as H2 is so leaky) your thoughts?
Clearly, starting with $1.50/kg hydrogen is a huge improvement. However, if you are dispensing hydrogen through a H70 pump, you still have to deliver it, store it on-site and compress it in order to dispense it. Only then can you sell it for $12 to $15/kg.Green Ammonia and Hydrogen Now Cheaper than Fossil Fuels
/PRNewswire/ - Hydrofuel Canada Inc. ("Hydrofuel"), a company engaged in delivering Green Ammonia and Hydrogen along the last mile to its customers, has...
Combined, these technologies allow Hydrofuel to produce Green NH3 using $.02/kWh electricity for as low as $220 a tonne, whereas fossil-fuel derived NH3 is currently selling at $1,500 to $2,000 a tonne.
Green Hydrogen can be separated out from this ammonia to sell at about $1.50 a kg, compared to traditional green H2 which sells for up to $15 a kg. Even at $.08/kWh the production of green Ammonia and releasing Hydrogen from it will be lower cost than any hydrocarbon fuel.
My thoughts:
- I think this is a win for ammonia which is widely used as fertilizer and is shipped around all the time in tank trucks. Cheaper green ammonia is a good thing.
- H2 is more complicated... It has a lot of industrial uses and this would be good if generated and used locally. It gets more complicated if it has to be stored and shipped... very inefficient. Using H2 as a fuel for transport is problematic due to compression, storage, shipping and inefficient fuel cells.
Yes, there is a massive amount of industrial and agricultural hydrogen and ammonia usage that is derived from fossil fuels that can and should be offset before there is a concerted push for hydrogen as a transportation fuel.
Green Ammonia and Hydrogen Now Cheaper than Fossil Fuels
/PRNewswire/ - Hydrofuel Canada Inc. ("Hydrofuel"), a company engaged in delivering Green Ammonia and Hydrogen along the last mile to its customers, has...
Combined, these technologies allow Hydrofuel to produce Green NH3 using $.02/kWh electricity for as low as $220 a tonne, whereas fossil-fuel derived NH3 is currently selling at $1,500 to $2,000 a tonne.
Green Hydrogen can be separated out from this ammonia to sell at about $1.50 a kg, compared to traditional green H2 which sells for up to $15 a kg. Even at $.08/kWh the production of green Ammonia and releasing Hydrogen from it will be lower cost than any hydrocarbon fuel.
My bold.
You say "nano", I say "Have you scaled it up and how much does it cost?"
For hydrogen power to be a climate solution, leaks must be curbed
The first problem for engineers is that burning hydrogen does not produce water only. It could lead to a continuation of the current nitrogen dioxide pollution from burning fossil fuels such as diesel and fossil gas.
The second problem comes from hydrogen leakage. Two government reports show hydrogen is a climate-heating gas, with a 100-year global warming potential that is about 11 times greater than carbon dioxide.
Increased hydrogen in our air means that methane, the second-most important global warming gas, would stay in our air for longer and have more impact. More hydrogen would also change the amount of ozone in our atmosphere. This is the third-most important climate-warming gas. Close to the ground, ozone harms our health and attacks plants, reducing crop yields.
The first problem for engineers is that burning hydrogen does not produce water only. It could lead to a continuation of the current nitrogen dioxide pollution from burning fossil fuels such as diesel and fossil gas.
The second problem comes from hydrogen leakage. Two government reports show hydrogen is a climate-heating gas, with a 100-year global warming potential that is about 11 times greater than carbon dioxide.
Increased hydrogen in our air means that methane, the second-most important global warming gas, would stay in our air for longer and have more impact. More hydrogen would also change the amount of ozone in our atmosphere. This is the third-most important climate-warming gas. Close to the ground, ozone harms our health and attacks plants, reducing crop yields.
MontyFloyd
Member
That alone kills hydrogen IMHO.
Add to that you still need ICE, which we see in many respects is inferior to EV
Just saying
Trudeau and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz to sign hydrogen deal in Newfoundland
The German government on Friday issued a statement confirming the agreement will be signed Aug. 23 in Stephenville, where a Newfoundland based company plans to build a zero-emission plant that will use wind energy to produce hydrogen for export.
CrazyRabbit
Active Member
Already discussed as above. Perhaps, but he instead said "Hydrogen, the second-tiniest of all atoms". Diatomic would be a molecule, not atom.
"Natural" hydrogen
Critically, natural hydrogen may be not only clean, but also renewable. It takes millions of years for buried and compressed organic deposits to turn into oil and gas. By contrast, natural hydrogen is always being made afresh, when underground water reacts with iron minerals at elevated temperatures and pressures. In the decade since boreholes began to tap hydrogen in Mali, flows have not diminished, says Prinzhofer, who has consulted on the project. “Hydrogen appears, almost everywhere, as a renewable source of energy, not a fossil one,” he says.
It is still early days for natural hydrogen. Scientists don’t completely understand how it forms and migrates and—most important—whether it accumulates in a commercially exploitable way. “Interest is growing fast, but the scientific facts are still lacking,” says Frédéric-Victor Donzé, a geophysicist at Grenoble Alpes University. Big Oil is hanging back, watching while wildcatters take on the risky exploratory work. Commercialization of the Mali field has run into snags, and elsewhere only a few exploratory wells have been drilled. Donzé, who has sworn off accepting industry money, worries about hype.
Critically, natural hydrogen may be not only clean, but also renewable. It takes millions of years for buried and compressed organic deposits to turn into oil and gas. By contrast, natural hydrogen is always being made afresh, when underground water reacts with iron minerals at elevated temperatures and pressures. In the decade since boreholes began to tap hydrogen in Mali, flows have not diminished, says Prinzhofer, who has consulted on the project. “Hydrogen appears, almost everywhere, as a renewable source of energy, not a fossil one,” he says.
It is still early days for natural hydrogen. Scientists don’t completely understand how it forms and migrates and—most important—whether it accumulates in a commercially exploitable way. “Interest is growing fast, but the scientific facts are still lacking,” says Frédéric-Victor Donzé, a geophysicist at Grenoble Alpes University. Big Oil is hanging back, watching while wildcatters take on the risky exploratory work. Commercialization of the Mali field has run into snags, and elsewhere only a few exploratory wells have been drilled. Donzé, who has sworn off accepting industry money, worries about hype.
Inside the Global Race to Turn Water Into Fuel https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/11/...gQ3Dr4ZM2g2RD1JoQfKjLUNDwiolA9wnHwV79JRbs7jNl
It is exactly those features that qualify this remote parcel of the Australian Outback for an imminent transformation. A consortium of energy companies led by BP plans to cover an expanse of land eight times as large as New York City with as many as 1,743 wind turbines, each nearly as tall as the Empire State Building, along with 10 million or so solar panels and more than a thousand miles of access roads to connect them all. But none of the 26 gigawatts of energy the site expects to produce, equivalent to a third of what Australia’s grid currently requires, will go toward public use. Instead, it will be used to manufacture a novel kind of industrial fuel: green hydrogen. This patch of desert, more than 100 miles from the nearest town, sits next to the biggest problem that green hydrogen could help solve: vast iron ore mines that are full of machines powered by immense amounts of dirty fossil fuels. Three of the world’s four biggest ore miners operate dozens of mines here.
It is exactly those features that qualify this remote parcel of the Australian Outback for an imminent transformation. A consortium of energy companies led by BP plans to cover an expanse of land eight times as large as New York City with as many as 1,743 wind turbines, each nearly as tall as the Empire State Building, along with 10 million or so solar panels and more than a thousand miles of access roads to connect them all. But none of the 26 gigawatts of energy the site expects to produce, equivalent to a third of what Australia’s grid currently requires, will go toward public use. Instead, it will be used to manufacture a novel kind of industrial fuel: green hydrogen. This patch of desert, more than 100 miles from the nearest town, sits next to the biggest problem that green hydrogen could help solve: vast iron ore mines that are full of machines powered by immense amounts of dirty fossil fuels. Three of the world’s four biggest ore miners operate dozens of mines here.
Fortescue, he said, will mix hydrogen with carbon dioxide so it is similar enough in consistency to liquefied natural gas that it can be transported in the same tankers.
Another Hydrogen For Energy Play Predictably Fails, This Time In Marine Fueling
Expect a lot more announcements about shutting down hydrogen for energy projects like the recent one from Equinor, Aire Liquide, and Eviny.
cleantechnica.com
The one that brought this to mind this morning was the announcement that Equinor, Air Liquide, and Eviny were completely abandoning their Norwegian green hydrogen shipping fuel project. They had a site picked out next to an Equinor refinery where they were going to build an electrolysis plant and manufacture six tons of liquified hydrogen a day.
Of course, it was a bait and switch project, at least on Equinor’s part. The documents make it clear that the actual intent was to make blue hydrogen by steam reformation of SMR. That’s the entire reason the oil and gas biggies are pushing hydrogen so hard. While they don’t expose or probably even do the napkin math for projects like Aurora, they do know that there’s no way to make hydrogen an energy carrier and make that hydrogen with renewables and electrolysis in the most remote timeline imaginable.
Humanity can’t actually do this. There is no sensible economic pathway where green hydrogen replaces fossil fuels. But if the fossil fuel industry can convince people that they keep needing to burn something for energy and that hydrogen is that thing, then they can bolt on energy-draining carbon capture technologies to their steam reformation and coal gasification plants, fix a tiny fraction of the upstream emissions, spend a lot of lobbying money and get governments to buy into the illusion that blue hydrogen is a climate solution
Another option others are considering is green ammonia. Guess what. More green hydrogen. Same cost challenges. Even less energy density than methanol. And it’s an absolutely horrific health hazard that’s much worse when exposed to water. As a public health official in the Netherlands, one responsible for three ports and a bunch of cities said recently, bunkering ammonia at ports would lead to the risk of tens of thousands of people dying in the event of a spill, and he couldn’t understand why it was even being considered.
