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Green New Deal
- Thread starter mspohr
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juliusa
Active Member
Got a link? Sounds VERY unlikley. They are spending capital to install wind generation to burn less gas in their gas generation facilities?
Hard to believe installing wind generation is lower than just the fuel cost of a natural gas plant.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Skotty
2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
I like the general idea of a Green New Deal, but it faces a lot of challenges. It would be at risk of the money being used for stuff that is well intentioned but ultimately ineffective. It would be at risk of liberal overreach. And it could hurt the support for Democrats in a time when we need them to provide checks and balances on a GOP that has lost it's way.
Given the current state of things, it should probably be limited to supporting clean energy build out, primarily solar and wind with stationary storage, but with a nod of support for nuclear research and legacy efficiency and emissions improvements. Save agriculture muckery and cultural mods for some other time. Try to mess with steak and take away people's straws (just a couple of examples that even I don't like) and you lose all the cowboys in a country with a lot of cowboys, and the whole deal goes down the drain. Sure, more is needed, but this is a democracy, and you can't do anything without sufficient public support. The plan needs to have reasonably wide appeal or nothing happens, or worse, the public goes Trump on you, throwing all principles, reason, and truth to the wind.
Given the current state of things, it should probably be limited to supporting clean energy build out, primarily solar and wind with stationary storage, but with a nod of support for nuclear research and legacy efficiency and emissions improvements. Save agriculture muckery and cultural mods for some other time. Try to mess with steak and take away people's straws (just a couple of examples that even I don't like) and you lose all the cowboys in a country with a lot of cowboys, and the whole deal goes down the drain. Sure, more is needed, but this is a democracy, and you can't do anything without sufficient public support. The plan needs to have reasonably wide appeal or nothing happens, or worse, the public goes Trump on you, throwing all principles, reason, and truth to the wind.
juliusa
Active Member
Nope. That is not what he said. Read it again.
Wind generation is cheaper than coal fuel.
Wind generation is cheaper than natural gas generation. Notice he did not say wind generation is cheaper than natural gas fuel.
And of course, nowhere did he say they were adding wind and lowering the utilization of natural gas plants.
Don't listen to what they say. Look at what they do. They (the power industry) is adding renewables and natural gas generation, and shuttering coal plants.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
You are spouting nonsense because you do not understand that the energy source chosen has dependencies other than just cost. Do yourself a favor and stop posting for a few months while you get educated. NWDiver knows what he is talking about.
juliusa
Active Member
Sure every situation is different. But you and @nwdiver are wrong on this.
How many new coal plants have been built in the US in the last 5 years. How many new coal plants are planned for the next 5?
How many new gas plants have been built in the US in the last 5 years? How many new gas plants are planned for the next 5?
It is a simple fact that coal is going away for mostly economic reasons, being replaced with renewables and gas.
Coal: decreasing
Gas: INCREASING
OECD electricity production by source 1974-2016
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
You do not have to "believe" anything. Just look up PPAs being signed. It is not only cheaper than than NG fuel cost*, it is often a *lot* cheaper. However, that is not even close to the entire story. NG gets used for dispatch-ability.
*Thermo efficiency is 35 - 55% depending on age and type of NG plant
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
That is true, but the economics are a complex mixture of regulatory costs, poor dispatch-ability, and per kWh source btu cost. You end up with goofy conclusions when you only look at btu cost.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is right. A 70% tax on the rich makes sense
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is right. A 70% tax on the rich makes sense | Nathan Robinson
Stopping climate change is an investment, and so the question has to be “How are we going to do it?” rather than “Do we have the money to do it?” The National Review is correct that the left has to move beyond talking points and “actually lay out a specific, comprehensive proposal of spending and tax increases.” But critics of left proposals, too, need to be explaining how they think we can achieve the urgent goals put forth by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
Here’s the good news: even when conservatives are fuming about Ocasio-Cortez, they cannot stop talking about her ideas. The “Green New Deal” climate change plan has gone from marginal to mainstream almost overnight. Now, Fox is hosting entire panel discussions to debate her policies, and they often end up using their own information channel to make left ideas look appealing. They are frustrated in part because the more they denounce “socialist” ideas, they more popular the ideas become.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is right. A 70% tax on the rich makes sense | Nathan Robinson
Stopping climate change is an investment, and so the question has to be “How are we going to do it?” rather than “Do we have the money to do it?” The National Review is correct that the left has to move beyond talking points and “actually lay out a specific, comprehensive proposal of spending and tax increases.” But critics of left proposals, too, need to be explaining how they think we can achieve the urgent goals put forth by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
Here’s the good news: even when conservatives are fuming about Ocasio-Cortez, they cannot stop talking about her ideas. The “Green New Deal” climate change plan has gone from marginal to mainstream almost overnight. Now, Fox is hosting entire panel discussions to debate her policies, and they often end up using their own information channel to make left ideas look appealing. They are frustrated in part because the more they denounce “socialist” ideas, they more popular the ideas become.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I have a Fujitsu mini-split in my guest house and it's awesome. I've been planning to migrate off of our gas-fired furnace in the main house, replacing it with 3 or 4 of those units. Recent heavy rains have made our ductwork smell like earth, and it's hastening my research. One thing that isn't well integrated on these units is thermostatic control, especially for those of us who like to do automation. Fujitsu has partnered with IntesisHome, and their remote devices work pretty well with the units, so that's the direction I'll likely go.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Combine a great SEER with a good house envelope, judicious time shifting and residential PV for truly outstanding cost and environmental results. Incidentally, this unit's EER is 18 ( ~ 5.3 COP) at a 15F degree delta
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juliusa
Active Member
Yes!! Let's hope she doesn't get hammered by the establishment left. Whoopi Goldberg Tells Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez To 'Sit Still' And 'Learn The Job'
Merrill
Merrill
Sitting still is what our government has been doing for to long, revolution is the only way to get the people in charge to take notice especially considering who is at the top.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
No. Look at line 4. The whole premise for this wind farm is that the saving per kWh is on fuel alone. Think. If the fuel cost of gas was lower than the LCOE cost of wind what sense would it make fiscally to build a wind farm? None. SPS has more generation than it needs so they don't need the capacity. But wind is cheaper than the fuel cost of gas and that's why the NM PRC approved this project 5-0.
Because SPS already has ~20% surplus capacity adding more capacity would be a nonstarter. The other side of this is regulatory. SPS is prohibited from making a profit on their fuel costs so it's a pass through on customers bills separate from the generation cost. Super easy to see what their blended fuel cost is. And since gas is more expensive than coal you know the cost of gas is even higher. Purchased power is typically even lower, often negative.
$0.024555/kWh = $25/MWh
Also.... the LCOE of gas generation is ~$70/MWh.... so yeah... $30 is just for the fuel
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I posted a link earlier that shows NG power plant prices at 30 - 35 cents a therm on average in the US through the yearAlso.... the LCOE of gas generation is ~$70/MWh.... so yeah... $30 is just for the fuel
A therm is 30 kWh
Depending on power plant, 35 - 55% of btu is converted to electricity
Ignoring O+M of the NG plant the electricity generation costs
As low as 30/(0.55*30) = 1.81 cents a kWh
As high as 35/(0.35*30) = 3.3 cents a kWh
In real life, O&M is not ignored and utilities love price stability. Per EIA the O&M of NG plants is about 0.3 cents a kWh. Most of the NG capacity in the US is under 40% efficient, and it cannot compete with well located wind.
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I can't figure out how to input the land area of the state
Seems a little outdated. Probably using data from ~2015.
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