This I agree with. However "the Government" is people. Sometimes people have to be....um ...persuaded to act a certain way.
Free Market is an illusion the same way free will is an illusion. We have neither.
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Green New Deal
- Thread starter mspohr
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Free Market is an illusion the same way free will is an illusion. We have neither.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
juliusa
Active Member
Explain that 90% of people are in favor of background checks for guns, but "government" isn't?
Explain that the only new federal gun restriction in the past two administrations came under Trump - he banned bump stocks that Obama allowed.
Politicians follow the money and power until the will of the people threatens their existence (re-election).
I do admit I have an overly-cynical view of politicians and government, their rampant corruption, and impotence.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Yeah... elected government is terrible but it's better than everything else...
What's the free market solution to gun control?
juliusa
Active Member
Nope. Through the will of the people.
Government was unable to do anything about DUI until MADD change public perception and the will of the people brought about more change than the government.
Goverment "war on drugs" was futile and they finally gave up.
Goverment war on coal (and Trump support for coal) was futile - market is what is killing coal.
He is a person (though some dispute that). People and will of the people are two different things.
Will of the people - when it is strong enough to override money and entrenched industry. That is why supposedly pro-gun Trump banned bump stocks that supposedly anti-gun Obama permitted.
Free market and will of the people. Government has less power over markets and people than most think (IMHO) unless they are willing to imprison/slaughter those that disagree with them. And therein lies the problem with giving too much power to government - eventually they take it all by force (after disarming the population).
Did I mention I have an overly-cynical view of politicians and government, their rampant corruption, and impotence?
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This is a lot of talking past one another and really just semantics.
Government is run by humans (people) and while change is slow it does happen by people.
The war on coal was won by policy's Obama put in place that allowed solar and wind to get a foothold. Also by new technologies that made cheap renewable's possible. All done by people.
Government is run by humans (people) and while change is slow it does happen by people.
The war on coal was won by policy's Obama put in place that allowed solar and wind to get a foothold. Also by new technologies that made cheap renewable's possible. All done by people.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
LOL... How did MADD get action? What acted? The free market or government through laws?
No one is disputing that action starts with the people. The GND is starting with the people. We elected people like AOC to hopefully mold the GND into law just like MADD got DUI laws.
juliusa
Active Member
...in spite of government.
People that live in CT own Teslas - even though government continues to ban their sale in CT.
DUI laws were there before MADD. Did nothing. People don't obey laws they don't want to. Marijuana is an example. Speed limit is another. Taxes are another - if taxes are too high, people simply cheat.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
And the free market began enforcing them????
LOL... Rational course of action for car that doesn't work:
Rational Person: Fix the car or at worst buy a new car.
Libertarian: Get a horse.
Except when the politicians can game the system by redistricting.
The free market solution is to arm everyone with automatic weapons and eliminate murder as a crime. Worked in Somalia. Of course, many people would not like to live in a country like that, but it's how the unregulated free market works.
I don't get a consistency in your viewpoint, or I'm just unable to parse it due to some limitation of my own. Do you agree that the "will of the people" is what pushes government to create legislation? And that legislation is what makes the change effective?
How do you suggest that the background checks be done, if the will of the people is such? What mechanism do we have to enforce that, if not government?
The way I'd summarize how I'm reading your complaint is that government lags the will of the people. Well, guess what? The market lags its externalities, and most of the time never internalizes them. Those externalities are left to society and your foe, government, to clean up.
I apologize if I'm misrepresenting your stance; just can't wrap my head fully around it yet.
In the US, government is run by corporate influence, not "the people"
juliusa
Active Member
No. Will of the people changed it where government had failed. It was no longer acceptable, and (most) people changed their behavior.
Yes - when the will of the people overrides the politician's own self-interest of getting donations, re-elected, job after they lose re-election, etc.
Only if the people agree with the legislation. Few people obeyed the 55mph speed limit enacted by Nixon, for example. The war on drugs was a complete failure; after 25 years the government finally surrendured with the First Step Act last year. As I stated earlier, unless the government is willing to incarcerate or slaughter people, there is a limit as to what they can do in terms of changing behavior with a stick.
It will be interesting. Most people seem to want background checks for all gun sales/transfers, and it looks like Trump will get it done where Obama failed. I think that is because the "will of the people" has reached the tipping point with the power of the entrenched industry and influence of the NRA - not because Trump is a hardliner and Obama was a softie.
Will people follow the law? TBD. If not, will the law be enforced by the police? TBD. If enforced by the police, will the courts put people in jail or simply slap their wrists? TBD
Generally yes, at least when the people still have power. There are many countries where the government has the power and this is not the case.
Sometimes the lag is for very long periods of time.
Which may be good: “When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.” Benjamin Franklin.
Short and succinct! I would have added politician self interest as well, but corporate influence covers that (campaign donations, employment after losing office, and plain old bribes).
And at a certain point "the people" are outraged enough to override it. But with a complicit media (they are part of the entrenched power establishment), that can take a long time.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
LOL! They changed it with...... GOVERNMENT!!! How is the GND any different????
Government failed... they fixed the failure.... IN THE GOVERNMENT! If something breaks in a car you find the flaw and fix it.... you don't give up using cars!
How is using bad laws as a reason government doesn't work any different than refusing to buy a Tesla because the Ford Pinto was a death trap??? There are bad laws and bad cars.... that's a flaw with the law or some cars not the idea of cars or laws. LOL.
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juliusa
Active Member
Yes - another impediment to making them accountable to the will of the people. They do this not for country or party - they do it for themselves.
Notice that politicians have - and will continue to have - armed guards, and walls around their homes. Regardless of what laws they pass. They will also have a caravan of large SUVs - regardless of mileage standards they pass. Political class takes care of itself first.
I'm not convinced it is the will of the people. When "the people" find out THEY have to pay for it, they may not like it so much. France yellow vest protests are a good example of that happening. Remember, most taxes to influence behavior (raising the price of gasoline for example) are regressive taxes that hit the people hardest - gasoline is not a big budget item for the rich.
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nwdiver
Well-Known Member
We're already paying for NOT acting. That's the point. Acting is cheaper than not acting because math and physics.
The Yellow Vest protest is THE REASON we need a GND. Most libertarians prefer a carbon tariff and to let 'magic' happen. That won't work as we saw in France. We need a system-wide fix or it won't work.
juliusa
Active Member
Nope. It was always illegal to drive under the influence. Until MADD came along and got people to agree with the law - or at least feel shamed for driving drunk - the law was ineffective. Government was impotent.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
..... ok......... who enforced the law under pressure from MADD?
Did I miss the private militias roving the streets pulling over drunk drivers?
juliusa
Active Member
You have to make the case to the people before they will open up their pocket book. And the cost to future generations and people in another state (let alone another country or continent) may be a hard sell to most people who don't have enough money for a $500 car repair.
Agreed. Reducing (or eliminating) our 15% or so of global emissions won't save the planet. Perhaps I missed the global part of the GND.
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