Green New Deal

[juliusa]

who enforced the law under pressure from MADD?

Exactly!! Government passes law based on will of the people. Government enforces laws based on will of the people.

MADD brought about a change in the will of the people. That is why there is a sharp reduction in DUI. 63% decrease in drunk driving deaths since their founding - largely due to a reduced incidence of drunk driving.

I don't know how old you are, but it used to be "socially acceptable" to get hammered and drive home. That changed with MADD.

What do you think would happen if the government started a zero tolerance campaign on speeding?

 

[nwdiver]

Perhaps I missed the global part of the GND.

It's the part where a carbon fee is assessed on imports to ensure there's no advantage to moving production out of the US to avoid a carbon tariff AND make it advantageous for producers like China to clean up their energy mix....

 

[nwdiver]

Exactly!! Government passes law based on will of the people. Government enforces laws based on will of the people.

MADD brought about a change in the will of the people. That is why there is a sharp reduction in DUI.

So why are you opposed to getting MADD about fools fuel? There's a certain degree of common sense here. If 99% of people want to get rid of small pox but 70% of those people think the vaccine will turn them into cows.... sorry... the vaccine is still mandatory despite the 70% of people that are morons.

If 99% of farmers want a stable climate but have been brainwashed into thinking CO2 isn't the cause... sorry we're still regulating CO2 to get a stable climate for the farmers.

Part of having an informed government is using expertise to accomplish what the people want even if most of them are sadly too ignorant to understand how to get it.....

In CA most people don't want wildfires or controlled burns. That's too bad.... we need controlled burns to prevent even worse fires.....


Seriously; If ~99% of people want 'A' but are too ignorant to understand that 'B' is a prerequisite for 'A' => don't want 'B'.... do we allow society to be halted by a mob of morons? OR.... OR... allow the physicians, epidemiologists, geologists, physicists, economists etc, etc to do what they are trained to do.... and get us what 'the people' want?

 

[juliusa]

It's the part where a carbon fee is assessed on imports

We don't import carbon to any significant degree. We produce as much oil as we use, and export coal and natural gas.

make it advantageous for producers like China to clean up their energy mix

What part of the GND does that?

So why are you opposed to getting MADD about fools fuel?

Not at all. The GND is a government-driven approach, not a grass-roots MADD-driven approach. Remember, using fossil fuels is a choice - every gas station in the US would close if people stopped buying gas. No airplanes would fly if people stopped buying tickets.

Will of the people is very powerful. I'm just not seeing it yet. Sure Tesla has sold a few cars - we have a long way to go.

 

[nwdiver]

We don't import carbon to any significant degree. We produce as much oil as we use, and export coal and natural gas.


What part of the GND does that?


Not at all. The GND is a government-driven approach, not a grass-roots MADD-driven approach. Remember, using fossil fuels is a choice - every gas station in the US would close if people stopped buying gas. No airplanes would fly if people stopped buying tickets.

Will of the people is very powerful. I'm just not seeing it yet. Sure Tesla has sold a few cars - we have a long way to go.

We import things that are produced in a carbon intensive way. The tariff would be proportional to the grid mix where they are produced. That's part of the GND.

Driving drunk is a choice too. People kept doing it until the risk of arrest and the personal consequences to them outweighed the benefit, the external costs were internalized and then some; We need to do the same with fools fuel.

There was a climate march that numbered 400,000.... I don't recall any MADD rallies that were 400,000. I also don't recall any nation-wide school strikes. Climate related rallies are ranked #4 and #13.... MADD didn't even crack the top 20.

 

[ohmman]

“When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.” Benjamin Franklin.

More later, but you're the first I've seen attribute that to Benjamin Franklin, though a cursory search shows you're not alone. Most others I've seen like to use Jefferson. Some use De Tocqueville. It's none of the above. It's a rephrasing of a quote by a Scotsman named Tytler.

 

[juliusa]

government is using expertise to accomplish what the people want even if most of them are sadly too ignorant to understand how to get it

Exactly the approach that will not work. Yes, it worked with healthcare where we simply lied and got legislation passed (you can keep your plan, you can keep your doctor). Just lie to the stupid little people so the all-knowing government can do what is best for them.

Won't work with the GND. It is not one piece of legislation that can get passed for the good of the ignorant masses. It is a legislative agenda that will need buy-in by the people all along the way. Little lies (the world will end in 10 years) will simply serve to undermine what little trust they have.

We import things that are produced in a carbon intensive way. The tariff would be proportional to the grid mix where they are produced. That's part of the GND.

I didn't know that. Not sure people will be in favor of that. A lot of people are critical of the tariffs as penalizing us not China or the other country, and quite a bit of debate on the effectiveness. It is certainly a regressive tax.

Driving drunk is a choice too.

Yes. And it was not the law or penalties that changed behavior, it was education and becoming socially unacceptable that made the difference, and got people to make different choices. People thought nothing of someone getting hammered and driving home - now that person would be openly criticized and challenged.

I'm simply saying that reducing carbon can be done by the people without the government, if it is what the people want. If half the country wants to be carbon-free, by simply making themselves carbon-free all the economies of scale will be achieved. We could certainly start with all the rich people who are true believers - get them to live a carbon zero life. How about Bernie Sanders? Rich dude - he could easily buy enough solar panels to produce 100% of the energy he uses. Today. Just write a check. Same with Al Gore. Lead and they will follow, right?

It's a rephrasing of a quote by a Scotsman named Tytler.

So noted!! Thanks. By rephrasing, I guess you mean nobody really said it - just makes it sound better if attributed to someone important.

 

[nwdiver]

Exactly the approach that will not work.

So..... we let the mob of morons override people that actually know what they're doing? The passengers should be able not just pick the destination but also to tell the pilot how best to fly the plane?

Yes. And it was not the law or penalties that changed behavior, it was education and becoming socially unacceptable that made the difference, and got people to make different choices.

LOL! Um.... no.... it was the laws that were enforced with more rigor and DUI checkpoints.....

 

[juliusa]

So..... we let the mob of morons override people that actually know what they're doing?

Yes. Welcome to democracy.

 

[juliusa]

LOL! Um.... no.... it was the laws that were enforced with more rigor and DUI checkpoints.....

The data says otherwise. DUIs Arrests and Fatalities Across the US | Alcohol.org

States with the highest arrests per capita have the most fatalities per capita. Enforcement has not changed behavior.

 

[nwdiver]

Yes. Welcome to democracy.

No.... that's called an ignorant mob. It's still a democracy if the passengers get to choose their destination. Not everyone can be trained as a pilot and only the opinion of a trained pilot matters in regards to flying the plane.

The data says otherwise. DUIs Arrests and Fatalities Across the US | Alcohol.org

States with the highest arrests per capita have the most fatalities per capita. Enforcement has not changed behavior.

There was nothing in there suggesting that laws are not the reason for DUI reduction. The CDC however....

'Counter Measures that work' Laws and checkpoints are #1 and #2 in terms of effectiveness.

Turns out that if you increase the odds of being caught AND the penalty fewer people drive drunk..... weird.

 

[juliusa]

No.... that's called an ignorant mob. It's still a democracy if the passengers get to choose their destination. Not everyone can be trained as a pilot and only the opinion of a trained pilot matters in regards to flying the plane.

Nope. In a democracy, passengers get to vote on who flies the plane too.

There was nothing in there suggesting that laws are not the reason for DUI reduction. The CDC however....

'Counter Measures that work' Laws and checkpoints are #1 and #2 in terms of effectiveness.

Turns out that if you increase the odds of being caught AND the penalty fewer people drive drunk..... weird.

Exactly!! Those are the most effective measures "government" can take. Government agencies are very good at protecting government.

But they don't explain why their #1 and #2 government options have failed in many states.

Government effectiveness is limited when the people don't cooperate. Will of the people is stronger than any government, as long as the government is unwilling to mass incarcerate or slaughter the people.

Government can arrest them. Government can take away their license. Government cannot stop them from driving, or from driving drunk, without incarcerating or slaughtering them. Only will of the people can stop it.

Remember the war on drugs? Failure. Should we repeat that and incarcerate a couple of generations of drunk drivers and learn the lesson again? "There is no education in the second kick of a mule". @ohmman - do you know the origin of that one?

 

[nwdiver]

Nope. In a democracy, passengers get to vote on who flies the plane too.

They vote on who choses the pilot but the pilot still choses how to fly the plane.

But they don't explain why their #1 and #2 government options have failed in many states.

LOL! Also didn't explain how asking nicely failed..... there are no states where DUI rates fell w/o laws.....

 

[juliusa]

They vote on who choses the pilot but the pilot still choses how to fly the plane.

They vote on the pilot, not who chooses the pilot, in a democracy.

Yes, the elected pilot chooses how to fly the plane even if the pilot is 3 years old.

The framers did decide to protect the people from doing that - President has to be at least 35. IIRC, natural born citizen and residency are the only other requirements. No experience requirement.

LOL! Also didn't explain how asking nicely failed..... there are no states where DUI rates fell w/o laws.....

And none where they fell before MADD. In fact, I can't tell if the government even kept statistics before MADD came about. And yes, MADD did a combination of lobbying for better laws and enforcement, along with education.

Drunk driving, sexual harrassment, racial discrimination - government and laws were largely ineffective until public opinion changed.

Turns out that if you increase the odds of being caught AND the penalty fewer people drive drunk..... weird.

How'd that work out for ya with your war on drugs??

 

[nwdiver]

Yes, the elected pilot chooses how to fly the plane even if the pilot is 3 years old.

I'm not aware of any 3 year olds qualified as pilots. That's the absurd and mildly pathetic aspect of your religion..... where does expertise come in? You can't expect a good outcome from ignorant people voting on a solution. The live load of a bridge is determined by structural engineers..... not a popular vote you ignorant twit.....

Drunk driving, sexual harrassment, racial discrimination - government and laws were largely ineffective until public opinion changed.

For the 4th time...... not by asking nicely..... but through more laws or better enforcement of existing laws. It's a nice libertarian fantasy...... wish it were true we'd save a lot of $$$$ simply asking people to be nice instead of spending $$$ on police and prisons.

How'd that work out for ya with your war on drugs??

..... please cite where I claimed any system is perfect. My point is and always has been that government achieves better results than the free market when most costs are externalized while the benefit is shared somewhat equally. We need to fix the car....... not start breeding horses......


More evidence that water is indeed wet....... and the earth is not flat....

Nearly 100 Percent
of Motorcyclists Comply
With Universal Helmet Laws

If there's unlikely to be consequences to not doing something (by law) far fewer people will do it even if they know they should anyway.....

 

[juliusa]

I'm not aware of any 3 year olds qualified as pilots.

Who said they were qualified? Electable by the electorate is all. If you are on that plane, you are dependent on the votes of the others in determining who the pilot is - just because YOU don't want the 3 year old to fly the plane, does not mean they cannot be elected by your fellow passengers. Democracy is wonderful, isn't it?
What seem to want the government to decide what is best for people, rather than the electorate. That is not a democracy.

but through more laws or better enforcement of existing laws.

Not working in North Dakota where they have a high incidence of drunk driving arrests and high incidence of drunk driving fatalities.
Did not work with the 1994 crime bill. Finally reversed it.
Does not work with speeding.
Does not work with drugs.

The government cannot control the people unless they are willing to mass incarcerate or slaughter them. The machine gun was the first enabler of government control, where a small number of people could control a large number of people. Before that government would disarm the population, but large numbers of people could still overpower the armed government forces.

 

[David_Cary]

Why are you seemingly comparing drug use to fossil fuel use when it comes to enforcement?

Some things are easy to enforce and some are not.

Fact is that the majority of people want something done about climate change. And I would guess, the vast majority of the younger crowd and new voters. And subsequently a minority of dying people. So the tide will shift - hopefully in 15 months or so.

I don't do drugs or drive drunk. But I would much rather give up fossil fuels than alcohol for instance.

 

[juliusa]

But I would much rather give up fossil fuels than alcohol for instance.

Others might rather give up alcohol than fossil fuels. People have different values and make different choices.

Fact is that the majority of people want something done about climate change.

And about gun violence too. "Something".

So the tide will shift - hopefully in 15 months or so.

That is my point:
1. Tide must shift to get the government to do anything - hence Trump's better record on gun control than Obama.
2. Government cannot effect much without a shift in tide - hence the failure of the war on drugs, and success on drunk driving.

Tide is important. Establishment resists tidal changes.

 

[Unpilot]

Tide must shift to get the government to do anything - hence Trump's better record on gun control than Obama

You lost me here...what better record?

 

[jerry33]

You lost me here...what better record?

Mass murders from automatic weapons increased. (It just depends on what you mean by better.)