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Green New Deal

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Only if the people agree with the legislation. Few people obeyed the 55mph speed limit enacted by Nixon, for example. The war on drugs was a complete failure; after 25 years the government finally surrendured with the First Step Act last year. As I stated earlier, unless the government is willing to incarcerate or slaughter people, there is a limit as to what they can do in terms of changing behavior with a stick.
It really depends on what you're talking about. In general, I disagree with this. As an example, I work with an environmental group in my town. We live in a cute wine country tourist town that has regular events downtown on our large plaza. The members of our group were tired of seeing single use plastics overflowing out of trash cans at these events. Plastic wine cups, plastic water bottles, plastic tableware, etc. So we pushed for a ban on single use plastics on City property. We got some push back but had the ability to show the reality of plastic waste to our City Council. They adopted the ordinance and all events this year have been plastic-free. Not all vendors are happy, but they're all complying.

I just completed work on a similar ordinance for a city-wide ban on polystyrene foam at food service establishments. It will be going to a commission today, they're likely to approve it, and it'll move to the City Council later this year. We have pretty broad Council support, so it's likely to also be adopted.

These are definitely happening counter to market forces, and in many ways counter to the will of the people. At least, they're happening in the absence of will. Nobody else is making moves to change these things, and there's no straightforward solution short of government intervention.
 
We stopped a coal plant from converting to NG recently. Now it's going to be a data center with PV panels. I'm assuming also using some battery storage to keep the data center powered in case of a power outage. Activists also pushed for a government ban on fracking on NY and a stop to NG expansion in our town, with government incentives for heat pumps.
 
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These are definitely happening counter to market forces,
I agree. I've tried to explain my belief that there are two forces. Market forces and will of the people.

I would add that will of the people can be overridden by a vocal minoriity, especially in local matters. Not saying that is what happened in your case.

Can market forces be overridden? Yes, to a limited extent - particularly when the impact on their wallet is minimal. Once it hits their pocketbook (higher energy prices for example) it becomes a much tougher proposition.
 
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No, in fact another central NY coal plant is also being repurposed as a data center. Neither plant had been contributing much power so additional power came from various sources. The plan for the data centers is to purchase renewable power plus on site generation from solar.
 
I agree. I've tried to explain my belief that there are two forces. Market forces and will of the people.
You've successfully named those items a few times, but to me, you haven't successfully explained or supported how they supplant government action. I'll agree that market forces can often be stronger than government, but government comes first in establishing a groundwork for the market. And there are plenty of examples where market forces are contrary the best interests of the environment, human health, and preservation of resources. In those cases, we must rely on some other mechanism for positive change. When preservation of health and the environment is detached by a few degrees of separation from the actions that are causing the issue, humans are less likely to have the will to fight for their change. It's worse than that, though, because in a lot of these cases there's an ask of reduced convenience or comfort on top of it, which is even harder to make happen.

These have parallels with the local work I mentioned. Banning single use plastics is less convenient. People have to bring their own refillable water bottles, or buy one. Vendors have to use alternative packaging. It costs more. Styrofoam is dirt cheap, so once that's banned, they'll be spending slightly more on compostable food service ware. But it's the right thing to do, so government has to take up the charge. The plastic grocery bag ban is another example o

Which brings us back to the GND. Self interested people aren't going to want to give things up for a greater good. Those who embrace the mythos of rugged individualism are, by definition, self interested. So how are the rights of the many balanced with the rights of the individual? Government policy is likely the most effective way.
 
Which brings us back to the GND. Self interested people aren't going to want to give things up for a greater good. Those who embrace the mythos of rugged individualism are, by definition, self interested. So how are the rights of the many balanced with the rights of the individual? Government policy is likely the most effective way.
The problem is that the last thirty years have been spent tearing down government so it can no longer do its job effectively. And in many places to get a change the people would have to get about 90% of the vote because of redistricting. Can progress be made, yes but it will be long, hard, and painful.
 
Free market and free will.
:rolleyes: Nice religion you have there.

There is very little government can do to counteract market forces, and the will of the people.
They can do a lot, in fact. You can control and manipulate markets to some degree (more or less depending on nature of market), your fervent denial notwithstanding. Of course, it is not always enough, but it worked nicely to prevent such wonders of free market as child labor working 12h per day for pittance in cobalt mines or rivers that can be literally set on fire.

Negative externalities or employee/customer/environment abuse - things that are obviously undesirable (unless you are just evil or parasite) yet somehow they happen in absence of regulation and other gov intervention - are one of many things that have no answer in your economic ideology.

This is why I can't treat seriously various strains of libertarianism or anarcho-capitalism. For me, they are no different from communism. Just on exact opposite on this particular ideological axis. Horseshoe theory, anyone?

Obama's war on coal. Trump's bringing coal back. Neither amounted to much - it is controlled by the market, not government.
In majority of cases, they work to some degree. You latched on few cheerpicked examples and you think it is convincing?

The premise of the GND (the world will end in 10 years) has also been debunked.
I have no interest in moronic strawmans.

Do you think rare earths, lithium, steel, plastics, and other materials needed to build turbines, batteries, motors, and solar panels will simply appear on the loading dock?
How it is different from oil/coal/gas infrastructure? Maybe you are one that think oil magically appears in tank of gas station.

And therein lies the problem with giving too much power to government - eventually they take it all by force (after disarming the population).
Newsflash for you: there are tons of countries in world where having gun is privilege, not right, yet somehow they are not totalitarian.
 
Newsflash for you: there are tons of countries in world where having gun is privilege, not right, yet somehow they are not totalitarian.
The "protection from government" argument is about the silliest thing I've ever heard. It was valid in 1776 when there wasn't much difference in weapon technology between civilians and military, and if you needed cannons you could always raid and get them. It became much more difficult by 1865 when the Gatling gun was invented. By WWI it would take a very poor military to be overcome (like Russia before the revolution). Today when your house can be pinpointed by drones, missiles, or someone sitting in a tank several miles away, having a basement full of assault weapons and thinking that will protect you from a tyrannical government is not very logical.

The way I'd like to see the weapons problem solved is to have the ammunition strictly controlled the way the do in Switzerland. Everyone has military grade guns, but ammunition is only allowed at firing ranges or military installations, and ammunition is strictly accounted for. The reason this solves the problem is that ammunition goes stale after a few years, while guns last forever if properly maintained. So after a few years of this, you could get all the guns you want, but with no bullets it wouldn't be an issue.
 
And there are plenty of examples where market forces are contrary the best interests of the environment, human health, and preservation of resources. In those cases, we must rely on some other mechanism for positive change.
I agree. But there is a limit to the effectiveness of government in enacting policies that are contrary to market forces.

Coal - Obama couldn't kill it and Trump can't save it. Economics is closing coal plants.
France is finding out government can't intervene in the market and raise fuel prices. Economics and will of the people.

Your plastics and styrofoam are interesting, and I put them in the category where policy can go against market forces on the fringes - where the impact is not material. By the way, in our household the banning of "single use plastics" has actually done the opposite. Instead of re-using plastic shopping bags as garbage bags (multiple use), we now purchase plastic garbage bags (single use).

Which brings us back to the GND. Self interested people aren't going to want to give things up for a greater good. Those who embrace the mythos of rugged individualism are, by definition, self interested. So how are the rights of the many balanced with the rights of the individual? Government policy is likely the most effective way.
I agree mostly - I just think there is a limit to government's ability to implement policy that works against market forces. Rich self interested people (Al Gore, Bernie Sanders) have been unwilling to give up luxuries for the greater good; poor public-interested people will be unwilling to give up their lifestyle (food, shelter, clothing, cell phone) for the greater good (France yellow-vests).

Government should do the right thing (plastics, polution, etc) but I think economics limits what people (rich or otherwise) are really willing to do. Why don't conscientioius rich people write a check and be carbon zero? Could donate money to a non-profit (so the government actually foots about half the bill) that would build solar farms to offset all the carbon they use. They can even continue to fly private and drive their SUVs. But they don't.

We own two Teslas. Makes no economic sense but we can afford them, we like the cars, did it for the greater good, and to lead by example. Why are so few people willing to do anything (solar panels, for example) unless they can calculate an ROI? Are they all too self-interested? Why are they only willing to do it if the government (their neighbors) subsidize it? I think most people are more self-centered than they think they are.
 
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No, in fact another central NY coal plant is also being repurposed as a data center. Neither plant had been contributing much power so additional power came from various sources.
Seems odd they would want to build power generation capacity that was not needed. Not sure what was driving that, but you probably saved them from themselves.

but it worked nicely to prevent such wonders of free market as child labor working 12h per day for pittance in cobalt mines or rivers that can be literally set on fire.
Good example of will of the people. When the people had finally had enough, the government had the power to do something that went against the economics of the powerful entrenched industry.
In majority of cases, they work to some degree. You latched on few cheerpicked examples and you think it is convincing?
Cherrypicked?? Coal and carbon is central to the GND and the future of the planet. Not some inconsequential fringe issue.
How it is different from oil/coal/gas infrastructure?
It is not. That was the entire point of the article - no free lunch.
there are tons of countries in world where having gun is privilege, not right,
That darned Constitution again!! So inconvenient.
 
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By the way, in our household the banning of "single use plastics" has actually done the opposite. Instead of re-using plastic shopping bags as garbage bags (multiple use), we now purchase plastic garbage bags (single use).
So it was perfectly effective. The goal of the plastic bag ban was to keep lightweight plastic bags from entering the environment outside of the waste stream. They blow away easily, they end up in streams, and eventually in the ocean. They also break down with UV and scatter micro plastics into the soil. You are still putting the same amount of plastic into landfill, but it's going directly into the landfill, where it is contained. And there are many who aren't like you, who had a huge cache of bags that eventually were trashed without reuse.

The idea that you didn't use it twice means nothing, because the amount of plastic waste is still the same. It's only important if the reuse is supplanting a new use of plastic. In your case, you use a different product to bring it home from the grocery store.

Reusable liners are good for home trash cans. Kitchen waste can be a bit more complicated, but recycled plastic bags at least are a way to use plastic that was already headed to waste.
 
Seems odd they would want to build power generation capacity that was not needed. Not sure what was driving that, but you probably saved them from themselves.
Indeed, it was quite maddening. They wanted to build NG peaker capacity, with no pipeline in place, and truck in NG until a pipeline could be built, which of course caused a lot of protests. I did some digging through the various holding companies that owned the power plant and they traced back to a fossil fuel industry supply company. I think they were trying to create a market for their products. I would have liked them to install Powerpacks and solar to fill the peaker demands but the data center with solar was an acceptable result.
 
That darned Constitution again!! So inconvenient.
2nd Amendment was a huge mistake, poorly worded, and probably has cost more U.S. lives than any other Amendment. I'm sure if the Founding Fathers could see the results they would have chosen differently. Remember the Constitution was supposed to be a living document, able to be adjusted, hence the "Amendments".
 
2nd Amendment was a huge mistake, poorly worded, and probably has cost more U.S. lives than any other Amendment. I'm sure if the Founding Fathers could see the results they would have chosen differently. Remember the Constitution was supposed to be a living document, able to be adjusted, hence the "Amendments".
I always though the main problem was that people ignore the "well regulated militia" part and turned it into free day at the zoo.
 
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