Harsh puinshment for early X ordering

[goneskiian]

So, because the matte Obeche wood is now a $750 option should they tag that on to my invoice?

 

[Dr ValueSeeker]

Your goal is to get a better build model x rather than saving the $750. It's true some buyers will be affect in some stages of the process where Tesla is doing upgrades, but non of those upgrades really matter if you initial build quality is poor. So If i were you, I will be glad that your car will have much better build quality than cars released in March. This saved you
lots of trips back and forth with the SC, and this is what $750 can't buy. Good luck!

This is a lame excuse. If the build quality is poor, he should simply reject the car, unless he wants to donate money to charity. If he ordered late, he could save $750 AND presumably get a better build.

 

[WilliamZ]

So, because the matte Obeche wood is now a $750 option should they tag that on to my invoice?

That's a question you need to ask Tesla.

 

[ModelXBoy]

This is a lame excuse. If the build quality is poor, he should simply reject the car, unless he wants to donate money to charity. If he ordered late, he could save $750 AND presumably get a better build.

Well here is the problem. My Model X is virtually perfect the time i picked up: Here is the diagram why my car is so hard and so long to fix:

Car was perfect until door latch did not engage anymore, this problems led to ---> Busted Door Bolt ----> Caused driver aluminum door side protruding dent (bodyshop involved)----> Busted bolt caused the door hit the top pillar ----> while the car been fixed at body shop, they smashed the glass while installing the door.

SC also sent my car to the wrong assigned bodyshop by mistake, caused 3 days wasted. First replacement glass sent to bodyshop was the wrong sized glass, caused another 2 days wasted.

If you see my diagram above, there is no way to spot the problems within just 1-2 hours on delivery day. Even if you do, you can't predict body damage developed from one simple latch problem and human errors that might occur later on while the car is away from you. So bottom line is not having the initial latch problem in the first place. This leads to better quality in the very beginning. The more trips you go back and forth with SC, the more problems might be fixed but more problems might occur. It's all by luck and by chance.

ModelXBoy

 

[Dutchie]

I agree that "heartbroken" is over the top, but I would agree with the OP. It would have left me with a sour taste in my mouth as well. The car has not even been manufactured yet! That Tesla never returned the call is unacceptable. This company relies on word-of-mouth for sales.

Tesla, call the customer back and credit him $750. You will have a very happy customer because of that and he will be happy to give a good word for you!

 

[Dr ValueSeeker]

@MXB,
Sorry to hear that. Hopefully, your matter is resolved by now.
Your story indicates, there could be some weakness in the design and manufacturing of this car. Probably not enough consideration for repairs. If even a good inspection doesn't reveal the issues, it can become problematic for QC to identify the bad ones.

Tesla should have done more pre-production testing for a few months at least. GM's Bolt has been given the green signal for production months ago, but they are still doing pre-production testing and improvements. Even Elio motors is signing up with a fleet company to do rigorous testing before entering production of their very simple and cheap car. Model X is surely a lot more complex, and needed a lot more durability testing.

 

[K-MTG]

I don't know if anyone in Tesla will feel my pain.

I have the same problem, as we discussed in a previous thread. In addition, I am concerned about my experience with the X. If I am having so many issues before I even received my X with CS, what will happen afterwards?

Well here is the problem. My Model X is virtually perfect the time i picked up: Here is the diagram why my car is so hard and so long to fix:

Car was perfect until door latch did not engage anymore, this problems led to ---> Busted Door Bolt ----> Caused driver aluminum door side protruding dent (bodyshop involved)----> Busted bolt caused the door hit the top pillar ----> while the car been fixed at body shop, they smashed the glass while installing the door.

SC also sent my car to the wrong assigned bodyshop by mistake, caused 3 days wasted. First replacement glass sent to bodyshop was the wrong sized glass, caused another 2 days wasted.

If you see my diagram above, there is no way to spot the problems within just 1-2 hours on delivery day. Even if you do, you can't predict body damage developed from one simple latch problem and human errors that might occur later on while the car is away from you. So bottom line is not having the initial latch problem in the first place. This leads to better quality in the very beginning. The more trips you go back and forth with SC, the more problems might be fixed but more problems might occur. It's all by luck and by chance.

ModelXBoy

How is the replacement X going? Any updates so far?

 

[X Fan]

Well here is the problem. My Model X is virtually perfect the time i picked up: Here is the diagram why my car is so hard and so long to fix:

Car was perfect until door latch did not engage anymore, this problems led to ---> Busted Door Bolt ----> Caused driver aluminum door side protruding dent (bodyshop involved)----> Busted bolt caused the door hit the top pillar ----> while the car been fixed at body shop, they smashed the glass while installing the door.

SC also sent my car to the wrong assigned bodyshop by mistake, caused 3 days wasted. First replacement glass sent to bodyshop was the wrong sized glass, caused another 2 days wasted.

If you see my diagram above, there is no way to spot the problems within just 1-2 hours on delivery day. Even if you do, you can't predict body damage developed from one simple latch problem and human errors that might occur later on while the car is away from you. So bottom line is not having the initial latch problem in the first place. This leads to better quality in the very beginning. The more trips you go back and forth with SC, the more problems might be fixed but more problems might occur. It's all by luck and by chance.

ModelXBoy

Sorry to hear and thanks for heads up about potential impact from broken latch....another data point that validates my decision to lease vs. buy. Clearly, they need to find the right solution for doors or this vehicle will be a warranty/cost nightmare, driving 25% GP to zero (or less).

 

[ModelXBoy]

How is the replacement X going? Any updates so far?

I was supposed to picked the car last Friday. But the recall third row seats came so they will install the seat and pick up Monday. They told me not even fix the alignment issue and all other minor cosmetic issues since model x replacement is coming. So I will be driving my existing X as a loaner, waiting for the new replacement X. The new one I still need to confirm with upper management of my configuration by procedure even though it's exactly the same thing (only difference is I changed back to 22 black Onix wheel). So continue waiting until Monday then.

 

[K-MTG]

I was supposed to picked the car last Friday. But the recall third row seats came so they will install the seat and pick up Monday. They told me not even fix the alignment issue and all other minor cosmetic issues since model x replacement is coming. So I will be driving my existing X as a loaner, waiting for the new replacement X. The new one I still need to confirm with upper management of my configuration by procedure even though it's exactly the same thing (only difference is I changed back to 22 black Onix wheel). So continue waiting until Monday then.

How is CS, are you working with the folks at Costa Mesa or HQ?

 

[Stasla]

I think OP is right, and I may be biased here, since I also initially ordered a 90D with Dark Ash at $750. My order confirmed 4/10 and 2 days later I downgraded to 75D, when it became available. I'm still not 100% sure what I will be paying, since the configuration spec on MyTesla is showing the 75D with $750 waived for Dark Ash per new pricing, while the Order agreement shows my original 90D configuration. They did charge me the $500 change fee, but it was an easier pill to swallow, since the smaller battery costs much less.

As a side note, Tesla should have a standard policy on these things. If they materially change the options, there needs to be a process where standing orders (that have not entered production) are allowed to change config for free at the current pricing at the time of change. That would be fair to the consumer.

Should they charge $750 for standing orders with Matte Obeche? No, I think they should offer the choice to the consumer: keep Matte Obeche or change to Dark Ash at no charge.

I realize that there are folks out there that are so well off that $750 is not a factor, nor is $5000, nor $20k, etc.. It's great that they are able to swing this car without so much as batting an eye, and are readily laying out dozens of thousands of dollars for superfluous (vs utility-minded) performance features - often times just to get the car faster, though with mixed results, as Tesla was not prioritizing some of them as promised.

I'm not jealous of their financial standing, in fact I'll be the first to thank them for indirectly funding the Model 3 and furthering the cause for affordable EVs.

For those of us that are not as affluent, or are plain more frugal, I think it's not fair to say that the price difference is "only a fraction of the overall order, so just enjoy the car whenever you get it" Money's still money, regardless of the amount. And fair is fair.

 

[ibdb]

My question is when do you draw the line?

Do you draw the line at delivery? When an order is confirmed? When an order is placed? When Tesla begins to make a change to a feature (announced or unannounced like 3G/4G)? When Tesla knows that they're going to make a change, but haven't announced it? There are probably other lines, but you get the point.

Because Tesla doesn't have set model years as most typically think of when they think of cars, there's always the potential -- even the likelihood -- that things are going to change.

 

[Stasla]

I think a natural line would be allowing free config updates to confirmed orders for material changes (as in changes to standard equipment, price drops on options, etc.) announced/published before the ordered vehicle enters production.

What's an immaterial (to the consumer) change, you may ask? Free upgrade to 75D for the 70D orders comes to mind.

My question is when do you draw the line?

Do you draw the line at delivery? When an order is confirmed? When an order is placed? When Tesla begins to make a change to a feature (announced or unannounced like 3G/4G)? When Tesla knows that they're going to make a change, but haven't announced it? There are probably other lines, but you get the point.

Because Tesla doesn't have set model years as most typically think of when they think of cars, there's always the potential -- even the likelihood -- that things are going to change.

 

[cwerdna]

Tesla should have done more pre-production testing for a few months at least. GM's Bolt has been given the green signal for production months ago, but they are still doing pre-production testing and improvements.
...
Model X is surely a lot more complex, and needed a lot more durability testing.

Yep. I've wondered aloud here a bunch of times at "TMC" about the long-term durability and reliabiliy testing Tesla does and posted examples of other automakers at automotive reliability and durability testing. Yet that thread is still crickets.

There's talk about 84,000 open-close door cycles to simulate 10 years of use. A Nissan NV 3500 van loaned to a company that was putting on 7500 miles/week, racking up 80K miles in 3 months and w/557K miles on the clock.

To copy and paste some from a story I linked to:

The automaker [Chrysler] racked up about 8.5 million miles on the road and in the lab on its Dart test fleet, averaging about 150,000 miles per car. That’s about twice as much driving as Chrysler put its test cars through just five years ago.

During the tests, Chrysler made sure that the horn can handle at least 75,000 honks (in China, drivers honk about 20 times per day, or 40 times more than the US), the doors can open and close 84,000 times, and the brakes can last for about 400,000 red lights and the pedal can be pressed about 1 million times.

This kind of longevity testing is helping. According to a Polk study released last year, owners are keeping their cars an average of 10.8 years, up from 8.4 years in 1995. Automakers are putting more miles on each test car, and the cumulative totals for fleets are also going up. At its Stanfield, Ariz., proving grounds, Infiniti has early prototype cars with about 300,000 miles on each vehicle, and simulates road wear for 20 years of use.

For the newly designed 2013 Malibu, Chevrolet engineers used about 170 pre-production test cars, driving each one about 45,000 miles per month for 22 months. (The re-designed 2013 Malibu Eco debuted in March.) In total, they put about 1 million miles on the test cars during the pre-production phase.

Chrysler, Nissan and Chevy aren't known for particularly good consistent overall reliability either (esp. Chrysler), despite all this.

I wonder if many Model X's could pass the 84K cycle door test on all 4 of its doors.

 

[Stasla]

I totally get it, but while the Order is in limbo having been confirmed but not started production, we should be able to make a change. For Model X this window stretched out for months as has been the case for many who confirmed same day they were invited to Config, as early as Nov/Dec 2015.

There are arguments to both sides, I'm only trying to highlight what I think would be most fair to the consumer.

Because Tesla doesn't have set model years as most typically think of when they think of cars, there's always the potential -- even the likelihood -- that things are going to change.

 

[Evbwcaer]

@WilliamZ,
Sorry you won't get any sympathy here. These posters are saying, because Tesla behaved similarly with them, what they did to you must be okay too. By that reasoning, anyone doing wrong will be right because he has always been doing wrong.

This is a problem with the "continuous" change Tesla so advocates. In this case, it sounds more unfair because your car is not even produced, rest aside its delivery. Had you received your car by now, you probably would have looked at it differently. But I agree with you, Tesla should have voluntarily waived that, to compensate for the delay in delivering your car.

I agree. None of the unsympathetic responses are providing analogous stories. His car is not yet built. They have dropped the price on an identical car ordered today. The goodwill a reservation should build notwithstanding, the original poster should be charged today's price.

I would tell them you are going to cancel and want a refund, or be charged the same price as identical cars being built on the same day.

 

[ibdb]

Our S was originally scheduled to be delivered in late June. For whatever reason, it was completed early and was delivered in early June. Had it been built on the anticipated schedule, it likely would have had 4G instead. How does that fit in? Should they compensate me because they built the car early and I missed an improvement as a result?

 

[Stasla]

I think you're confusing the situation. In this case the car has not started to be built, it's still queued up. And in general X to S comparison should not apply. We all know that the order placed for a new S is on a much more defined schedule, or as in your case, even ahead of schedule. Model X, however has a LOT of confirmed orders with no definite production schedules due to ramp up issues, QC issues slowing down production, 3rd row recall, etc. If what happened to you was my case, I suppose I would have had to shrug it off - feature added after the car was built. Though I completely commiserate with you wanting 4G and being upset that you would have had it should Tesla have stayed true to the original build timeline.

Our S was originally scheduled to be delivered in late June. For whatever reason, it was completed early and was delivered in early June. Had it been built on the anticipated schedule, it likely would have had 4G instead. How does that fit in? Should they compensate me because they built the car early and I missed an improvement as a result?

 

[ohmman]

I realize that there are folks out there that are so well off that $750 is not a factor, nor is $5000, nor $20k, etc.. It's great that they are able to swing this car without so much as batting an eye, and are readily laying out dozens of thousands of dollars for superfluous (vs utility-minded) performance features - often times just to get the car faster, though with mixed results, as Tesla was not prioritizing some of them as promised.

I'm not jealous of their financial standing, in fact I'll be the first to thank them for indirectly funding the Model 3 and furthering the cause for affordable EVs.

For those of us that are not as affluent, or are plain more frugal, I think it's not fair to say that the price difference is "only a fraction of the overall order, so just enjoy the car whenever you get it"

I agree that the argument of "just pay a little more" is a faulty one, and one that's often repeated around here. I know with the Model S, there were a lot of buyers who really stretched to get the base model. I put that one in the same category with "a car that costs X should have Y". They're flawed.

However, I think the argument you're making has its own flaw. That is, someone who already paid extra for a trim option obviously can part with the extra $750. It's a cosmetic choice, but worth upgrading? Frugal people don't often do that.

Guess what? I took the base trim. It was free. If Dark Ash was the free option, I'd have chosen that.

 

[Stasla]

While I agree with you on the purely cosmetic nature of the wood trim, I have to disagree on the "already paid" part. It's still an open order that's nowhere close to fulfillment / final payment stages.

My focus is on changes to the pricing structure BEFORE the order enters production. Hypothetical: if tomorrow they decide to throw in the similarly priced tow package as standard and included in base price for all new orders - that would not sit well with a lot of folks with confirmed orders being charged for tow on cars that haven't yet started build stage.

My original point is that Tesla needs a standard policy on these situations vs. inconsistent experience we're seeing: some got charged a fee, some had it waived, some were told no change allowed...

I agree that the argument of "just pay a little more" is a faulty one, and one that's often repeated around here. I know with the Model S, there were a lot of buyers who really stretched to get the base model. I put that one in the same category with "a car that costs X should have Y". They're flawed.

However, I think the argument you're making has its own flaw. That is, someone who already paid extra for a trim option obviously can part with the extra $750. It's a cosmetic choice, but worth upgrading? Frugal people don't often do that.

Guess what? I took the base trim. It was free. If Dark Ash was the free option, I'd have chosen that.