Hellcat Re-Match Results in beating P85D

[Norbert]

I have to disagree with this. The P85D adjusts torque at the millisecond level right at the threshold of grip. With the monstrous amount of torque that the P85D has, even with AWD, I would think that the launch would be faster with drag radials, either all-around or even just on the back. AWD cars can do burnouts so that tells you that the stock tires on the P85d have limited grip and torque is still electronically limited.

So the question would be if it is possible to re-calibrate the traction control to take full advantage of drag radials. And if there is anyone to try it out and take it to the dragstrip. And do the proper things to achieve best acceleration, like lift the foot from the pedal first.

Wait, I could think of someone who would do such things... ... is the current world record for production EVs still at 11.68, and would drag radials count for improving it? (I hope it won't damage the drive shaft, though. Better talk to Tesla first.)

 

[krisg81]

You are right, I am not from performance car background, I never said I was. I am from the "green" crowd, I was driving a very small and very slow EV for 2 years before I could afford to buy a MS.
I really did not understand (as I said above) how ICE cars can beat the P85D off the line, now you explained it. Thanks for the education!

BTW, I did not mean to sound arrogant, after all I do not even have a performance Model S, just a basic S85.

No worries at all man! And nothing wrong with an S85. My buddy has a brand new grey S85 and its awesome. Its a great car, and I would still take the slower S85 over a Hellcat if I had to pick between the two, because the Model S is a much better car all around. It's not JUST all about performance.. its the entire package.

So the question would be if it is possible to re-calibrate the traction control to take full advantage of drag radials. And if there is anyone to try it out and take it to the dragstrip. And do the proper things to achieve best acceleration, like lift the foot from the pedal first.

Wait, I could think of someone who would do such things... ... is the current world record for production EVs still at 11.68, and would drag radials count for improving it? (I hope it won't damage the drive shaft, though. Better talk to Tesla first.)

Drag radials would not help a P85D very much, in my opinion. In fact, the extra rolling resistance of the stickier tire compound may actually hurt the trap speeds. There is no traction issue with the P85D, and the computer doesn't need to activate traction control from what I have seen- so no real reason to go with stickier tire compound unless auto crossing or taking it on a road course, where you would want R compound tires for enhanced cornering ability. That's a whole difference ballgame, as the P85D wont hold a candle to pretty much any 250HP+ ICE vehicle with decent suspension.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Drag radials would not help a P85D very much, in my opinion. In fact, the extra rolling resistance of the stickier tire compound may actually hurt the trap speeds. There is no traction issue with the P85D, and the computer doesn't need to activate traction control from what I have seen- so no real reason to go with stickier tire compound unless auto crossing or taking it on a road course, where you would want R compound tires for enhanced cornering ability. That's a whole difference ballgame, as the P85D wont hold a candle to pretty much any 250HP+ ICE vehicle with decent suspension.

Mayyyybe.... traction control probably kicks in long before the light comes on.

 

[krisg81]

Mayyyybe.... traction control probably kicks in long before the light comes on.

I doubt it. I have experience with several high HP AWD vehicles in the 600-700HP range, and trust me- no traction control needed. I also had a 2012 Jeep SRT8 with a Vortech blower that put out 625HP to all 4's and it wouldn't even chirp the tires, or the traction control kick in at all. 3 second 0-60's no problem, I even ran a 10.98 in it at 122MPH. AWD rarely needs traction control with decent tires, and the P85D has Michelin PS2's which are excellent tires, as long as the surface is dry. Even in wet, my previous AWD rides would still run mid 3 second 0-60's no problem. I am guessing you haven't had a high HP AWD vehicle in the past?

Here is a good video of how good AWD can launch with well over 650HP (he's running a 426 w/ Whipple supercharger, a little more power than what I was running).. you can see this kind of launch is similar to a P85D and would definitely give it a run for its money. No traction control needed. Just decent tires like PS2's and AWD.

SKIP to 0:30

 

[brianman]

The traction of the P85D is already adequate .... To make the race more fair, traction needs to be improved on the Hellcat, ....

I concur with some of the points you're trying to make, but I think you're getting hung up a little on the "stock" terminology.
This (abbreviated) quote goes in the "win" column for the P85D. When you say stuff like "to make the race more fair" in Hellcat enthusiast (sub)forums, I suspect you'll get some, um, "aggressive" responses.

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EPA regulations make OEM's put on crappy tires to get better gas mileage ratings, and the Hellcat was no exception.

If you're going to be a stickler for terminology, be consistent.

The EPA regulations don't make the OEMs put such tires on the vehicles. The market might motivate it but, AFAIK, there are no regulations
requiring "boring" or "efficient" tires.

 

[krisg81]

If you're going to be a stickler for terminology, be consistent.

The EPA regulations don't make the OEMs put such tires on the vehicles. The market might motivate it but, AFAIK, there are no regulations
requiring "boring" or "efficient" tires.

Brian, of course the EPA doesn't tell anyone to use stickier tires- thats obvious. Better stickier and wider tires would have hurt MPG's so Chrysler didn't put them on the car in order to get a better EPA rating and to avoid the gas guzzler tax. I guess I just assumed thats what people thought I meant lol.

Just like Tesla advertises their range ratings based on 19" wheels and tires, not the optional 21"s. Chrysler just doesn't offer an optional wheel/tire set like Tesla.

 

[brianman]

I guess I just assumed thats what people thought I meant lol.

Just like Tesla tells you the HP for each of the motors on the D vehicles and assumes you know what they meant. Just sayin'.

 

[krisg81]

Just like Tesla tells you the HP for each of the motors on the D vehicles and assumes you know what they meant. Just sayin'.

Except they aren't putting out the power that Tesla is telling everyone..

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Except they aren't putting out the power that Tesla is telling everyone..

what if the motors are but just not at the same time maybe? not that it would be a proper way to rate power of a car
With Tesla 'anything' is possible...(at least that is what a coworker said but I think he was speaking about picking up ladies:redface

 

[beeeerock]

Mayyyybe.... traction control probably kicks in long before the light comes on.

I suspect you're right. My gut says 470 and 220 hp (back and front), without any sort of transfer case to connect the two, is likely to break any all season tire loose. A Jeep isn't really AWD in my mind, but rather 4WD. Front and back are pretty tightly tied together, even if through one of those quadratrak transfer cases, or whatever they use. I think they even had some sort of electronic limited slip diff as well. My own experience with low horsepower 4WD, non-electronically controlled vehicles is limited to a couple of Pathfinders I had in the late 80's and early 90's. Granted, the tires were SUV all-seasons rather than current day passenger car all-seasons, the transmissions were both manual, but it was possible to break the tires free in those vehicles. Far from spectacular and it didn't exactly leave most of the tire smeared on the pavement, but not overly difficult to do. Grossly underpowered vehicles they were, but went anywhere!

I can't imagine the computer doesn't somehow control the instant torque available with the electric drive - people would be getting themselves into serious trouble if they didn't. There's no torque converter involved to soften the blow.

 

[krisg81]

what if the motors are but just not at the same time maybe? not that it would be a proper way to rate power of a car
With Tesla 'anything' is possible...(at least that is what a coworker said but I think he was speaking about picking up ladies:redface

Its true that the motors might be capable up to a certain amount, but it should be advertised with current HP, not future/potential. Not to get onto another subject though. I think the car performs fine as is though, as long as you keep it close to fully charged as possible. I'll welcome any performance updates though!

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I suspect you're right. My gut says 470 and 220 hp (back and front), without any sort of transfer case to connect the two, is likely to break any all season tire loose. A Jeep isn't really AWD in my mind, but rather 4WD. Front and back are pretty tightly tied together, even if through one of those quadratrak transfer cases, or whatever they use. I think they even had some sort of electronic limited slip diff as well. My own experience with low horsepower 4WD, non-electronically controlled vehicles is limited to a couple of Pathfinders I had in the late 80's and early 90's. Granted, the tires were SUV all-seasons rather than current day passenger car all-seasons, the transmissions were both manual, but it was possible to break the tires free in those vehicles. Far from spectacular and it didn't exactly leave most of the tire smeared on the pavement, but not overly difficult to do. Grossly underpowered vehicles they were, but went anywhere!

You are confusing 4WD vs full-time AWD.

 

[brianman]

I think the car performs fine as is though, as long as you keep it close to fully charged as possible.

Even with the caveat it's good to see the positive outlook.

 

[Canuck]

Give credit where credit is due... I'm not a Kool-Aid drinker like quite a few other Tesla owners I've met.

Yes, how Tesla folks can be overly impressed with their Tesla's is a mystery to me. Super-fast, stylish, electric and a game changer when it comes to the auto industry -- so what's the big deal? Just a lot of Kool-Aid drinkers out there. Can't you see it just lost to a Hellcat?! You should all be ashamed.

 

[krisg81]

Yes, how Tesla folks can be overly impressed with their Tesla's is a mystery to me. Super-fast, stylish, electric and a game changer when it comes to the auto industry -- so what's the big deal? Just a lot of Kool-Aid drinkers out there. Can't you see it just lost to a Hellcat?! You should all be ashamed.

I picture someone writing this post while drinking a martini with his pinky in the air, dressed in a Tommy Bahama shirt opened just enough to see chest hair and a gold chain, short khaki shorts, and those weird leather netted sandals. I don't know why, but its the vibe I get from it.. lol

 

[beeeerock]

You are confusing 4WD vs full-time AWD.

Maybe, but I don't think so. If it has a transfer case, I consider it 4WD. If it's Subaru or Volvo or Mercedes with a completely different (slushier) system of distributing power (i.e. some sort of central differential), I consider it AWD. I was curious, so I did a quick search and found this: Jeep 4x4 Canada Basics- How Jeep 4-Wheel Drive Systems Work Jeep seems to consider their systems 4WD and use the term 'transfer case' in several places, but perhaps that's just how they want it perceived for marketing purposes.

But that doesn't really matter. I still suspect instantly applying everything the motors can produce, especially with weight transfer considered, is going to either break a tire or tires loose, or simply break something else.

 

[krisg81]

Maybe, but I don't think so. If it has a transfer case, I consider it 4WD. If it's Subaru or Volvo or Mercedes with a completely different (slushier) system of distributing power (i.e. some sort of central differential), I consider it AWD. I was curious, so I did a quick search and found this: Jeep 4x4 Canada Basics- How Jeep 4-Wheel Drive Systems Work Jeep seems to consider their systems 4WD and use the term 'transfer case' in several places, but perhaps that's just how they want it perceived for marketing purposes.

But that doesn't really matter. I still suspect instantly applying everything the motors can produce, especially with weight transfer considered, is going to either break a tire or tires loose, or simply break something else.

Beeeeeeeeeeerock, another good example of the mechanically-challenged people on this forum. Once again, you are talking about a Jeep 4x4 which is 4WD, not full time AWD. I notice a lot of people that speak as if they have lots of knowledge, but definitely misspeak and give out incorrect false information here. With all due respect, its a bit frustrating.

The Jeep SRT8 has a full time AWD system. It uses the NV146 transfer case.. heres a description:

"SRT NV146. Active full-time single-speed with variable torque, solid electronically controlled clutch pack in center differential and open front and rear differentials. The NV146 transfer case provides On-Demand Active Four Wheel Drive for optimum traction in a wide range of conditions. The transfer case uses the electronically controlled clutch pack to distribute between 0% and 50% of the available torque to the front axle. The NV146 electronics provide an active system because it can anticipate and prevent slip."

 

[sorka]

"Fair" would be drag radial vs drag radial. Given the big gap in performance for the Hellcat without drag radials (and as others mentioned multiple cases of damaged drive shafts with such tires) those tires are touching into the "unfair" territory. Of course no one has tested the P85D with drag radials yet, so no idea what kind of gain that would net.

No, fair would be stock against stock. The P85D won't benefit at all from drag radials since it's not traction limited on regular street tires.

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I have to disagree with this. The P85D adjusts torque at the millisecond level right at the threshold of grip. With the monstrous amount of torque that the P85D has, even with AWD, I would think that the launch would be faster with drag radials, either all-around or even just on the back. AWD cars can do burnouts so that tells you that the stock tires on the P85d have limited grip and torque is still electronically limited.

Um, if that were true, you'd see differences between the wider 21" wheels and the narrower 19" wheels but so far we don't.

 

[Canuck]

I picture someone writing this post while drinking a martini with his pinky in the air, dressed in a Tommy Bahama shirt opened just enough to see chest hair and a gold chain, short khaki shorts, and those weird leather netted sandals. I don't know why, but its the vibe I get from it.. lol

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[krisg81]

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOL

 

[Charles85D]

I picture someone writing this post while drinking a martini with his pinky in the air, dressed in a Tommy Bahama shirt opened just enough to see chest hair and a gold chain, short khaki shorts, and those weird leather netted sandals. I don't know why, but its the vibe I get from it.. lol

While we're at poking fun at Canuck, I picture someone writing the above post using their dirtied work hands to eat toast during breakfast while wearing tatoos with one of them saying "Boss of horsepower", and the other one saying "I know more about cars than you" and the last one saying "I'm not mechanically challenged" while washing down the chuck steak they ate with a bud light. Anyways, that's just the thoughts of a tree hugger as someone would say it. Therefore pay no attention.

Also noticed that Krisg81 just changed his "non-disclaimer" at the bottom of his recent post to ironically "non-mirror" Brianman's post. Talking about not "stirring the pot".